1
00:00:13,890 --> 00:00:11,910
on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

2
00:00:18,150 --> 00:00:13,900
with the south Andrews the thinking

3
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:18,160
atheist this silly sideshow conversation

4
00:00:24,300 --> 00:00:20,970
that always dominates center stage is

5
00:00:26,609 --> 00:00:24,310
science versus religion and to me the

6
00:00:30,569 --> 00:00:26,619
questions are much deeper than that and

7
00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:30,579
really boil down to one question is your

8
00:00:38,250 --> 00:00:34,030
mind purely a function of your brain

9
00:00:40,739 --> 00:00:38,260
because if it's not then we start having

10
00:00:43,290 --> 00:00:40,749
to introduce all these other topics that

11
00:00:46,470 --> 00:00:43,300
do kind of make us uneasy because they

12
00:00:48,389 --> 00:00:46,480
start sounding very spiritual it's not

13
00:00:51,119 --> 00:00:48,399
necessarily a new thing for people to

14
00:00:53,309 --> 00:00:51,129
say you can't understand abstract

15
00:00:55,139 --> 00:00:53,319
consciousness that's not a new argument

16
00:00:58,439 --> 00:00:55,149
but to say that the reputable science

17
00:01:02,639 --> 00:00:58,449
community is advocating that there must

18
00:01:04,380 --> 00:01:02,649
be a conduit of spirit out there that is

19
00:01:06,390 --> 00:01:04,390
responsible I don't think that's

20
00:01:08,460 --> 00:01:06,400
accurate I don't think it's reflected by

21
00:01:10,620 --> 00:01:08,470
mainstream especially secular scientists

22
00:01:12,749 --> 00:01:10,630
who are the majority and I think if you

23
00:01:14,639 --> 00:01:12,759
spend that much time you playing what if

24
00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:14,649
you'll drive yourself nuts I think you

25
00:01:19,620 --> 00:01:17,290
start the argument from elsewhere that

26
00:01:23,219 --> 00:01:19,630
is exactly why I wanted to do this

27
00:01:25,770 --> 00:01:23,229
interview in two parts because I have to

28
00:01:27,929 --> 00:01:25,780
tell you in the dialogues I've had we

29
00:01:31,709 --> 00:01:27,939
always get to this point we have to dig

30
00:01:34,380 --> 00:01:31,719
through all the opinions that we might

31
00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:34,390
have beliefs we might have and try and

32
00:01:39,599 --> 00:01:37,630
do as good a job as we can of getting

33
00:01:42,029 --> 00:01:39,609
down to the science getting down to the

34
00:01:45,899 --> 00:01:42,039
scientific evidence and understanding it

35
00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:45,909
the best we can stay with us for skeptic

36
00:02:01,240 --> 00:01:59,620
welcome to skeptic aware we explore

37
00:02:04,030 --> 00:02:01,250
controversial science with leading

38
00:02:06,250 --> 00:02:04,040
researchers thinkers and their critics

39
00:02:08,889 --> 00:02:06,260
I'm your host Alex Karras and on today's

40
00:02:10,359 --> 00:02:08,899
episode I have a dialogue with the

41
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:10,369
thinking atheist

42
00:02:14,590 --> 00:02:12,770
Seth Andrews who's popular YouTube

43
00:02:18,070 --> 00:02:14,600
channel has nearly a hundred thousand

44
00:02:19,780 --> 00:02:18,080
subscribers and millions of views now as

45
00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:19,790
you know from listening to skeptic oh

46
00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:21,890
it's hard to book these kind of

47
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:24,770
interviews despite their claims to the

48
00:02:30,190 --> 00:02:27,530
contrary atheists and skeptics don't

49
00:02:32,470 --> 00:02:30,200
really like to get into debates about

50
00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:32,480
science and about the evidence behind

51
00:02:39,730 --> 00:02:35,780
their beliefs so I was delighted when

52
00:02:41,710 --> 00:02:39,740
Seth agreed to come on and come on to my

53
00:02:44,590 --> 00:02:41,720
new concept I had this idea for a

54
00:02:47,050 --> 00:02:44,600
two-part format where we'd use the first

55
00:02:49,060 --> 00:02:47,060
interview to kind of map out our ideas

56
00:02:51,310 --> 00:02:49,070
map out our thoughts and then use the

57
00:02:54,030 --> 00:02:51,320
second part of the interview to really

58
00:02:57,820 --> 00:02:54,040
get into the debate so here then is my

59
00:03:01,420 --> 00:02:57,830
first interview with Seth Andrews the

60
00:03:04,210 --> 00:03:01,430
thinking atheist today we welcome Seth

61
00:03:07,509 --> 00:03:04,220
Andrews - skeptic Oh Seth is the creator

62
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:07,519
of the thinking atheist a very popular

63
00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:09,170
website and YouTube channel

64
00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:11,840
Seth is also a former Christian and a

65
00:03:16,750 --> 00:03:13,910
former Christian broadcaster who

66
00:03:19,509 --> 00:03:16,760
challenges his listeners to assume

67
00:03:22,300 --> 00:03:19,519
nothing questioned everything and start

68
00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:22,310
thinking welcome Seth and thanks for

69
00:03:26,410 --> 00:03:24,530
joining me on skeptic Oh ants a real

70
00:03:28,270 --> 00:03:26,420
pleasure thanks for the inviting and

71
00:03:30,910 --> 00:03:28,280
thanks for allowing me to be a part of

72
00:03:33,370 --> 00:03:30,920
the show hey awesome I am really

73
00:03:36,370 --> 00:03:33,380
grateful that you've joined me I love

74
00:03:38,229 --> 00:03:36,380
your tagline on your call for deeper

75
00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:38,239
thinking about some of these issues I I

76
00:03:41,050 --> 00:03:40,310
could just have easily written that

77
00:03:43,690 --> 00:03:41,060
myself

78
00:03:45,310 --> 00:03:43,700
I just hope that our dialogue today

79
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:45,320
lives up to that at least a little bit

80
00:03:47,410 --> 00:03:47,090
and give some folks something to think

81
00:03:50,140 --> 00:03:47,420
about

82
00:03:52,030 --> 00:03:50,150
well some people you know will say you

83
00:03:54,430 --> 00:03:52,040
know Seth are you the thinking atheist

84
00:03:57,820 --> 00:03:54,440
and I always stop for just a second I

85
00:04:00,490 --> 00:03:57,830
say well you know no you know the

86
00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:00,500
thinking the thinking atheist is a an

87
00:04:05,530 --> 00:04:02,329
outline of a guy with a light bulb in

88
00:04:07,949 --> 00:04:05,540
his head I'm just the guy who hosts and

89
00:04:10,050 --> 00:04:07,959
I I wanted a website

90
00:04:12,690 --> 00:04:10,060
and a moniker that just encouraged

91
00:04:14,580 --> 00:04:12,700
people to to think it out it was in my

92
00:04:17,999 --> 00:04:14,590
life when I stopped accepting what I was

93
00:04:19,890 --> 00:04:18,009
told and by my my family culture Society

94
00:04:22,110 --> 00:04:19,900
and I started thinking for myself

95
00:04:25,020 --> 00:04:22,120
finally I was late to that party but I

96
00:04:27,570 --> 00:04:25,030
finally decided to show up it was it was

97
00:04:29,999 --> 00:04:27,580
when I started thinking that all of a

98
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:30,009
sudden these mysteries began to sort of

99
00:04:35,129 --> 00:04:33,370
I began to find the answers to many of

100
00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:35,139
the questions I was looking for and so

101
00:04:38,879 --> 00:04:36,910
that's really what I want I don't mean

102
00:04:41,909 --> 00:04:38,889
for it to be egotistical some people say

103
00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:41,919
it is a you and I we say no they say is

104
00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:43,900
it redundant the thinking atheist and I

105
00:04:47,850 --> 00:04:45,490
go absolutely not just because

106
00:04:50,070 --> 00:04:47,860
somebody's may theist does not mean it's

107
00:04:51,689 --> 00:04:50,080
a guarantee that they are thinking but

108
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:51,699
we should all have our minds engaged

109
00:04:54,420 --> 00:04:53,289
anywhere we go and to try to figure it

110
00:04:56,909 --> 00:04:54,430
out as best we can

111
00:04:58,800 --> 00:04:56,919
well I think you're true to that really

112
00:05:00,540 --> 00:04:58,810
on your site and in your YouTube channel

113
00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:00,550
it's not somebody out there pushing

114
00:05:04,770 --> 00:05:02,710
themselves with their name out front and

115
00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:04,780
their image all over the place and I

116
00:05:09,990 --> 00:05:07,570
like that I think it does push someone

117
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:10,000
to look past that given folks a little

118
00:05:14,670 --> 00:05:12,250
bit of an introduction to what you do

119
00:05:17,129 --> 00:05:14,680
and what you're about but I also want to

120
00:05:18,779 --> 00:05:17,139
let people hear a little bit from one of

121
00:05:20,969 --> 00:05:18,789
your presentations actually the one that

122
00:05:23,490 --> 00:05:20,979
led me to you it's a YouTube video you

123
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:23,500
put together titled the afterlife it's

124
00:05:29,399 --> 00:05:25,930
really quite well done and I think it's

125
00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:29,409
quite provocative if I can let me play a

126
00:05:34,409 --> 00:05:31,630
short clip about a minute clip from that

127
00:05:36,270 --> 00:05:34,419
and then we'll roll right into you can

128
00:05:38,010 --> 00:05:36,280
tell us about that clip about the

129
00:05:40,260 --> 00:05:38,020
YouTube channel that you've put together

130
00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:40,270
and maybe more of an introduction to

131
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:41,680
what you're doing there so that's not

132
00:05:48,779 --> 00:05:46,210
okay sounds good if you spent a lovely

133
00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:48,789
day at the beach and then returned the

134
00:05:53,820 --> 00:05:50,830
following weekend knowing that it had

135
00:05:57,210 --> 00:05:53,830
one fewer grain of sand would it seem

136
00:05:59,310 --> 00:05:57,220
like a different Beach so - with the

137
00:06:02,220 --> 00:05:59,320
universe continued in its way as if

138
00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:02,230
humanity weren't here to witness it

139
00:06:13,670 --> 00:06:07,030
the universe is absolutely massive and

140
00:06:16,230 --> 00:06:13,680
we are virtually insignificant in it I

141
00:06:18,150 --> 00:06:16,240
have on occasion that people tell me

142
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:18,160
that my life must be so depressing

143
00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:20,770
because I'm an atheist it's doom and

144
00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:23,050
gloom once you die it's it's all over

145
00:06:31,170 --> 00:06:27,070
and it's just absurd to me how many

146
00:06:37,770 --> 00:06:31,180
people live for dying in this weird way

147
00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:37,780
I think fragile fearful humans were

148
00:06:42,870 --> 00:06:40,030
terrified of death and so they wrote

149
00:06:45,030 --> 00:06:42,880
their own ending to the story this happy

150
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:45,040
fantasy a place where they'll be

151
00:06:50,340 --> 00:06:46,810
reunited with people they've lost

152
00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:50,350
they'll experience constant joy and of

153
00:06:59,010 --> 00:06:55,870
course they'll never ever die okay so

154
00:07:02,580 --> 00:06:59,020
that's our guest Seth Andrews so tell us

155
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:02,590
a little bit about this particular video

156
00:07:07,590 --> 00:07:06,130
well my youtube channel started around

157
00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:07,600
the same time that I launched the

158
00:07:12,870 --> 00:07:10,330
thinking atheist calm website it was at

159
00:07:14,940 --> 00:07:12,880
the end of kind of a rough journey which

160
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:14,950
echoes the journey of many who came out

161
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:18,610
of religion normally and for you know

162
00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:21,970
what normally happens is if you are like

163
00:07:27,810 --> 00:07:24,360
me you were raised in the cradle of a

164
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:27,820
religious family and culture I mean I

165
00:07:34,260 --> 00:07:29,650
went the whole the whole route you know

166
00:07:37,050 --> 00:07:34,270
I had theologian parents who you know

167
00:07:39,420 --> 00:07:37,060
took trips to the Holy Land and who were

168
00:07:42,780 --> 00:07:39,430
Bible scholars and wrote sermons for

169
00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:42,790
local pastors and and you know they were

170
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:43,630
the real deal

171
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:45,850
they weren't just passing Sunday

172
00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:48,610
Christians they were hardcore and so

173
00:07:54,650 --> 00:07:50,290
that was the environment in which I was

174
00:07:58,020 --> 00:07:54,660
raised and as I became an adult I

175
00:07:59,580 --> 00:07:58,030
assumed most of my thinking was well

176
00:08:01,560 --> 00:07:59,590
there was so well educated they're

177
00:08:04,950 --> 00:08:01,570
geniuses they're so smart they must know

178
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:04,960
and I was a Christian broadcaster for a

179
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:07,930
long time and then finally I you know I

180
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:10,210
started to you know I don't know if what

181
00:08:14,790 --> 00:08:11,890
it is about getting older but I just

182
00:08:15,820 --> 00:08:14,800
started to become uneasy and and so

183
00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:15,830
around

184
00:08:22,159 --> 00:08:19,290
you know 2008 I was at critical mass and

185
00:08:24,260 --> 00:08:22,169
and I did I was just tired of making

186
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:24,270
excuses for all the stuff that made no

187
00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:26,850
sense and by 2009 I was a full blown

188
00:08:30,379 --> 00:08:28,770
atheist I was just saying the word out

189
00:08:33,260 --> 00:08:30,389
loud and I wanted to help other people

190
00:08:35,180 --> 00:08:33,270
out of their particular journeys to

191
00:08:36,290 --> 00:08:35,190
remind them that they were not alone and

192
00:08:38,180 --> 00:08:36,300
to make me help give them some

193
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:38,190
information as I was doing some of my

194
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:41,370
own homework and to challenge some of

195
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:43,050
the established thinking and so I I

196
00:08:47,630 --> 00:08:44,730
started I'm a professional video

197
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:47,640
producer now and I started putting

198
00:08:53,060 --> 00:08:50,130
together just some videos and put them

199
00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:53,070
on YouTube but on the website and had a

200
00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:55,770
few hundred hits here or there and the

201
00:08:59,210 --> 00:08:57,330
first ones were nothing really to crow

202
00:09:02,620 --> 00:08:59,220
about they were just my first attempts

203
00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:02,630
but they were big steps for me they were

204
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:05,310
the first video I ever put up was called

205
00:09:10,010 --> 00:09:07,410
the invisible God and it was a challenge

206
00:09:13,070 --> 00:09:10,020
to my first public challenge to the

207
00:09:14,660 --> 00:09:13,080
deity that I had formerly the Selena I

208
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:14,670
had formerly been raised with and taught

209
00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:17,490
to be loyal to and in some ways afraid

210
00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:20,730
of it it was a big big deal and then I

211
00:09:25,930 --> 00:09:23,310
produced at the time I was really going

212
00:09:28,220 --> 00:09:25,940
I mean a couple of videos a month

213
00:09:29,870 --> 00:09:28,230
single-handedly just buried myself in

214
00:09:31,430 --> 00:09:29,880
the production room and just kept going

215
00:09:33,350 --> 00:09:31,440
and going and going and then before you

216
00:09:35,450 --> 00:09:33,360
know what we're doing radio podcast and

217
00:09:37,790 --> 00:09:35,460
I mean the Facebook page began to take

218
00:09:39,980 --> 00:09:37,800
off and you know now here in the year

219
00:09:42,860 --> 00:09:39,990
2012 I found myself struggling to keep

220
00:09:48,740 --> 00:09:42,870
up you know I find myself thinking man I

221
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:48,750
need a staff oh yeah it's a good problem

222
00:09:54,350 --> 00:09:50,730
to have but that's kind of how they get

223
00:09:56,300 --> 00:09:54,360
the whole thing got going so it is quite

224
00:09:57,890 --> 00:09:56,310
an endeavor that is the thinking atheist

225
00:09:59,720 --> 00:09:57,900
I can only imagine I mean just looking

226
00:10:01,460 --> 00:09:59,730
at all the different things you've got

227
00:10:03,170 --> 00:10:01,470
you have going on so obviously I've

228
00:10:04,910 --> 00:10:03,180
watched some of your YouTube videos I've

229
00:10:06,740 --> 00:10:04,920
also read some of your blog posts and

230
00:10:08,510 --> 00:10:06,750
I've listened to some of your podcast

231
00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:08,520
which are interesting because you

232
00:10:14,540 --> 00:10:11,760
actually have people call in and I get a

233
00:10:18,290 --> 00:10:14,550
sense from that from where some of your

234
00:10:20,090 --> 00:10:18,300
audience is at and I get it you know in

235
00:10:21,050 --> 00:10:20,100
terms of the dialogue that I'd like to

236
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:21,060
have with you today

237
00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:23,850
I guess the first thing I'd say is I do

238
00:10:28,790 --> 00:10:24,510
get that

239
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:28,800
I mean Christianity is silly coercive

240
00:10:33,980 --> 00:10:31,170
and you despite all that still being a

241
00:10:36,139 --> 00:10:33,990
huge influence that we can all see in

242
00:10:39,079 --> 00:10:36,149
our culture or society our politics all

243
00:10:40,340 --> 00:10:39,089
that and I also get you know like we're

244
00:10:43,250 --> 00:10:40,350
just talking about and listen to your

245
00:10:45,949 --> 00:10:43,260
podcast the personal part of it you know

246
00:10:47,810 --> 00:10:45,959
how the the coercive nature of it and

247
00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:47,820
how a lot of us are indoctrinated into

248
00:10:54,290 --> 00:10:50,970
us into it at a very young age makes it

249
00:11:00,490 --> 00:10:54,300
hard to shake it makes it really messes

250
00:11:05,780 --> 00:11:03,680
unnecessary but coming there the part

251
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:05,790
that interests me and the part that I

252
00:11:13,850 --> 00:11:09,170
really want a dialogue with you about is

253
00:11:16,639 --> 00:11:13,860
what lies behind that you know what is

254
00:11:19,220 --> 00:11:16,649
the deeper truth beyond all this

255
00:11:22,250 --> 00:11:19,230
arm-waving about science versus religion

256
00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:22,260
which to me really seems like more of a

257
00:11:29,810 --> 00:11:26,000
sideshow because to me the real question

258
00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:29,820
scientifically more or less is is that

259
00:11:34,910 --> 00:11:31,769
little voice inside our head that is our

260
00:11:38,510 --> 00:11:34,920
consciousness is that just my brain

261
00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:38,520
firing or is there something more going

262
00:11:46,670 --> 00:11:43,110
on well it's a it's a broad stroke that

263
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:46,680
you can paint there but you know if you

264
00:11:54,860 --> 00:11:51,600
were to ask me 15 years ago where does

265
00:11:57,410 --> 00:11:54,870
consciousness come from of course I'm

266
00:11:59,329 --> 00:11:57,420
talking about the soul I'm talking about

267
00:12:01,910 --> 00:11:59,339
that you know that magic the

268
00:12:06,410 --> 00:12:01,920
unexplainable part of our of our being

269
00:12:08,630 --> 00:12:06,420
that even that that is you know it's

270
00:12:09,980 --> 00:12:08,640
spirit it is eternal it is all these

271
00:12:12,350 --> 00:12:09,990
types of things and if you were to ask

272
00:12:14,150 --> 00:12:12,360
me now after I've dug in a little deeper

273
00:12:19,460 --> 00:12:14,160
and and come to some different

274
00:12:21,740 --> 00:12:19,470
conclusions I and my mind ICS as I am my

275
00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:21,750
mind my consciousness is essentially a

276
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:24,180
product of the electrical impulses of

277
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:26,510
the brain I think they're physically

278
00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:29,130
explainable even if we don't have all

279
00:12:34,519 --> 00:12:31,670
the explanations yet I don't have an

280
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:34,529
inclination to paint God into all the

281
00:12:40,490 --> 00:12:37,370
cracks into all the vacant spaces

282
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:40,500
because every time we have done so we

283
00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:42,240
have always been wrong

284
00:12:48,199 --> 00:12:44,940
people have always when they ran into a

285
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:48,209
wall our our ancestors would always play

286
00:12:54,019 --> 00:12:51,360
the God card and then as we have evolved

287
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:54,029
and learned more as a species it turns

288
00:12:57,620 --> 00:12:56,010
out that the answer science provided

289
00:12:59,900 --> 00:12:57,630
were more accurate and they were

290
00:13:01,760 --> 00:12:59,910
actually more interesting I mean it

291
00:13:04,190 --> 00:13:01,770
sounds like at least we're approaching

292
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:04,200
this somewhat from the same angle what

293
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:06,930
I'd like to propose and I just sketch

294
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:08,490
this out in very broad terms and the

295
00:13:13,820 --> 00:13:11,010
email that I sent you is kind of a

296
00:13:16,250 --> 00:13:13,830
two-part approach to that because what

297
00:13:18,050 --> 00:13:16,260
I've often encountered is you're out

298
00:13:20,060 --> 00:13:18,060
there you're doing your thing and have

299
00:13:21,970 --> 00:13:20,070
studied a lot of this stuff in great

300
00:13:24,110 --> 00:13:21,980
detail and I appreciate that you've also

301
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,120
interviewed a lot of very smart people

302
00:13:28,579 --> 00:13:26,880
and I know from my own experience that

303
00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:28,589
you know I've grown a lot from that and

304
00:13:33,620 --> 00:13:31,200
I'm sure you have too so you're bringing

305
00:13:35,269 --> 00:13:33,630
a lot of your information to the table

306
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:35,279
which may overlap with some of mine but

307
00:13:38,540 --> 00:13:36,959
there's obviously some stuff that you

308
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:38,550
know that I don't know and the reverse

309
00:13:43,940 --> 00:13:41,279
is probably true so what I want to do in

310
00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:43,950
a little bit of time today is kind of

311
00:13:48,019 --> 00:13:46,260
sketch out the territory of this

312
00:13:49,819 --> 00:13:48,029
dialogue we might have and say and I'm

313
00:13:52,460 --> 00:13:49,829
gonna say hey Seth here's what I'd like

314
00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:52,470
to you know bring to it this and this in

315
00:13:56,569 --> 00:13:54,360
this and this and here's how I put these

316
00:13:59,090 --> 00:13:56,579
pieces fit together and here are some of

317
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:59,100
the experts I've talked to and then you

318
00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:00,720
know I want you to do that likewise a

319
00:14:06,380 --> 00:14:03,360
little bit and then maybe we can

320
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:06,390
reconvene in a week or whatever the

321
00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:09,810
timeframe is and then see where we

322
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:12,510
really are in terms of pushing each

323
00:14:16,910 --> 00:14:14,850
other with some of this information that

324
00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:16,920
we have how does that sound I mean

325
00:14:20,810 --> 00:14:18,660
that's cool you know if it's if we're

326
00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:20,820
having a debate or even a friendly

327
00:14:23,710 --> 00:14:22,980
debate as opposed to an interview I mean

328
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:23,720
I'm cool with that

329
00:14:28,460 --> 00:14:26,850
if we're all about trying to challenge

330
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:28,470
each other to sharpen our ideas so that

331
00:14:33,019 --> 00:14:31,110
we are actually better tomorrow than we

332
00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:33,029
are today I'm all over that I think it's

333
00:14:37,010 --> 00:14:34,920
a fantastic idea and I'm not opposed to

334
00:14:39,860 --> 00:14:37,020
it at all great so that's what I'd like

335
00:14:42,019 --> 00:14:39,870
to do and since most the interviews

336
00:14:44,750 --> 00:14:42,029
we've done on sceptical have surrounded

337
00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:44,760
this idea of consciousness and what we

338
00:14:49,310 --> 00:14:46,529
know about consciousness and what we can

339
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:49,320
say and what we can say is probably not

340
00:14:54,260 --> 00:14:51,930
true about consciousness that's where

341
00:14:56,030 --> 00:14:54,270
I'd like to kind of drive things because

342
00:14:57,860 --> 00:14:56,040
I think that's where it gets real

343
00:15:01,010 --> 00:14:57,870
interesting we were just talking a

344
00:15:02,690 --> 00:15:01,020
minute ago about religion and about your

345
00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:02,700
experience in what you've seen in other

346
00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:06,750
people and I guess the the maybe counter

347
00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:09,150
to that is we need to know as best we

348
00:15:16,580 --> 00:15:12,510
can whether there is anything to these

349
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:16,590
claims of consciousness being more than

350
00:15:22,370 --> 00:15:19,680
just our brain because if they are a lot

351
00:15:26,590 --> 00:15:22,380
of these other things that we've kind of

352
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:26,600
taken as true in terms of scientific

353
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:30,180
materialism atheistic kind of you kind

354
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:32,850
of become a lot harder to hold up and

355
00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:34,530
that about that I mean you know if

356
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:38,310
consciousness is outside of our brain

357
00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:40,050
then we have to start asking questions

358
00:15:45,890 --> 00:15:43,310
like when does consciousness start and

359
00:15:48,590 --> 00:15:45,900
obviously when does consciousness end

360
00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:48,600
does it extend beyond and you don't have

361
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:51,750
to go very far with those philosophical

362
00:15:57,380 --> 00:15:54,810
questions obviously to to the point

363
00:15:59,060 --> 00:15:57,390
where you reach some deeper spiritual

364
00:16:01,550 --> 00:15:59,070
questions like you were just mentioning

365
00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:01,560
you throw around words like soul and you

366
00:16:06,140 --> 00:16:03,360
even get to God and you get to those

367
00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:06,150
things very quickly so where I've come

368
00:16:12,170 --> 00:16:09,060
at this topic is not to address the

369
00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:12,180
questions of God and soul but to aggress

370
00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:14,550
address the questions of consciousness

371
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:18,150
what do we really know and where is that

372
00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:21,690
research going so that's what I'd like

373
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:23,820
to outline I guess today and I guess I'd

374
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:26,310
like to find out more about your

375
00:16:30,260 --> 00:16:28,560
thoughts and where you're coming at and

376
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:30,270
saying that you've come to the

377
00:16:36,410 --> 00:16:33,120
conclusion that it's brain based well

378
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:36,420
you know I was talking to our in raw who

379
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:40,290
is another YouTube atheist and he has

380
00:16:46,190 --> 00:16:43,650
sampled at the you know the buffet of

381
00:16:49,610 --> 00:16:46,200
consciousness of consciousness enhancing

382
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:49,620
practices you know spiritual whatever

383
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:53,370
you know the world of whoo and he is you

384
00:16:57,740 --> 00:16:55,440
know he's talked about how that in this

385
00:17:01,190 --> 00:16:57,750
highly subjective environment was one

386
00:17:02,930 --> 00:17:01,200
time convinced that that you know your

387
00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:02,940
he could do this he could do that he

388
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:04,800
broke through different planes of

389
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:06,810
consciousness and whatnot and at the end

390
00:17:09,769 --> 00:17:08,970
of the day he realized that it was all

391
00:17:14,059 --> 00:17:09,779
subjective

392
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:14,069
it was all very much not based in

393
00:17:19,609 --> 00:17:16,559
reality was he done a sales job on his

394
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:19,619
own mind he he had come out the other

395
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:21,839
end realizing look this is all Justin

396
00:17:34,729 --> 00:17:27,710
and I have a I myself have a difficulty

397
00:17:39,619 --> 00:17:34,739
approaching the ideas of does

398
00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:39,629
consciousness come from without without

399
00:17:43,519 --> 00:17:41,849
a measure of real skepticism because

400
00:17:45,289 --> 00:17:43,529
perception and reality are not

401
00:17:48,229 --> 00:17:45,299
necessarily the same thing we talked

402
00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:48,239
about there's a book by Lebanon Cramer

403
00:17:53,629 --> 00:17:51,089
about about how even eyewitnesses

404
00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:53,639
perceive things when they witness a

405
00:17:59,149 --> 00:17:56,940
crime and that perception is tainted

406
00:18:02,450 --> 00:17:59,159
it's tainted by so many subjective

407
00:18:04,909 --> 00:18:02,460
things what I want to know is what you

408
00:18:07,009 --> 00:18:04,919
think you saw I want to know what the

409
00:18:08,989 --> 00:18:07,019
evidence says I don't want to start with

410
00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:08,999
everything that might be possible you

411
00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:10,289
know we talked about where consciousness

412
00:18:14,989 --> 00:18:12,089
comes from well it might come from a

413
00:18:16,519 --> 00:18:14,999
giant pink plush monkey suction-cupped

414
00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:16,529
at the back of one or two Pater's moons

415
00:18:21,619 --> 00:18:19,769
that's that's you can't disprove it but

416
00:18:23,329 --> 00:18:21,629
it's not where I want to start what I

417
00:18:26,419 --> 00:18:23,339
want to start with even with my feet on

418
00:18:29,539 --> 00:18:26,429
the ground and to say what can we see

419
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:29,549
what can we prove and if if there are

420
00:18:37,129 --> 00:18:33,570
areas beyond that that are unexplainable

421
00:18:39,169 --> 00:18:37,139
as of yet to me that I don't get I I

422
00:18:40,969 --> 00:18:39,179
don't want to find myself wandering out

423
00:18:43,999 --> 00:18:40,979
in the weeds grasping at the first

424
00:18:45,950 --> 00:18:44,009
attractive answers that I see I I really

425
00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:45,960
would like to know even if I'd know that

426
00:18:51,769 --> 00:18:49,080
I don't know that's the information how

427
00:18:53,239 --> 00:18:51,779
we'd like moving forward so I I take a

428
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:53,249
little bit of a harder line when it

429
00:18:58,759 --> 00:18:55,919
comes to you know are their energies and

430
00:19:02,029 --> 00:18:58,769
and and external forces guiding our

431
00:19:04,099 --> 00:19:02,039
consciousness my my skeptical nerve

432
00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:04,109
tends to start to flare up at that

433
00:19:07,489 --> 00:19:05,700
moment you know I that's something

434
00:19:10,039 --> 00:19:07,499
that's especially awakened to me in the

435
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:10,049
last 36 months no I hear you on that and

436
00:19:14,659 --> 00:19:12,330
it also I guess would probably be a

437
00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:14,669
point where we are in congruence and

438
00:19:19,310 --> 00:19:15,929
that's that the one thing that

439
00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:19,320
aggravates me is apologetics whether it

440
00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:21,710
comes from Christian apologetics or

441
00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:23,640
scientific apologetics and

442
00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:26,220
view apologetic says you know starting

443
00:19:32,450 --> 00:19:29,460
with my end answer Jesus really was

444
00:19:35,539 --> 00:19:32,460
resurrected and then cherry picking out

445
00:19:38,450 --> 00:19:35,549
bits and pieces of science sounding

446
00:19:41,210 --> 00:19:38,460
facts archeological facts or biblical

447
00:19:43,070 --> 00:19:41,220
scholarship facts to make my case and

448
00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:43,080
try and cobble something together and

449
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:46,080
I'm really really against that but I'm

450
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:49,370
also against that when it comes to a

451
00:19:55,370 --> 00:19:53,010
scientific approach that does the same

452
00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:55,380
thing so I guess that's the second time

453
00:19:58,940 --> 00:19:57,240
that I've heard you play science and

454
00:20:01,340 --> 00:19:58,950
religion sort of side by side in the

455
00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:01,350
horse race and and I don't see them as

456
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:04,740
as compatible I really think we're

457
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,720
talking about I mean the scientific

458
00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:08,640
method of use correctly does not start

459
00:20:12,110 --> 00:20:10,500
with an answer it follows the chain of

460
00:20:15,530 --> 00:20:12,120
evidence it admits when it is wrong and

461
00:20:18,590 --> 00:20:15,540
fixes itself science is a process that

462
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:18,600
is delighted to be wrong and wants to in

463
00:20:23,570 --> 00:20:22,110
its purest form wants to fix whatever is

464
00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:23,580
wrong so that it can provide better

465
00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:25,500
information I mean science is always

466
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:27,540
updating and revising religion is

467
00:20:33,020 --> 00:20:30,080
pitching the same answers that it had

468
00:20:34,730 --> 00:20:33,030
for the last however many thousands of

469
00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:34,740
years and the apologists are now coming

470
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:36,600
out to make excuses for and to give

471
00:20:41,419 --> 00:20:38,640
context of but their arguments largely

472
00:20:45,049 --> 00:20:41,429
hasn't changed science changes everyday

473
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:45,059
and so I myself cannot put religion and

474
00:20:49,490 --> 00:20:47,370
science in that in that race they're

475
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:49,500
they're they're two different breed two

476
00:20:54,530 --> 00:20:51,840
different animals totally and and I have

477
00:20:56,150 --> 00:20:54,540
a difficult time trying to correlate one

478
00:20:57,890 --> 00:20:56,160
with the other because like I believe

479
00:21:00,169 --> 00:20:57,900
they are completely incompatible and

480
00:21:03,770 --> 00:21:00,179
they operate in completely different

481
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:03,780
ways maybe but I don't want to go there

482
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:04,890
too far because I think we'll get

483
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:07,110
sidetracked from the main thing that I

484
00:21:11,150 --> 00:21:08,970
wanted to try and engage with you on and

485
00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:11,160
that Juris idea of consciousness no but

486
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:12,809
I mean that's a valid point I'd love to

487
00:21:17,090 --> 00:21:15,330
hash that out with you for an hour you

488
00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:17,100
spend do you spend every show talking

489
00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:19,260
about consciousness I mean every single

490
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:22,260
episode consciousness related kind of

491
00:21:25,159 --> 00:21:24,450
activities yeah I mean I think that's

492
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:25,169
where it's all at

493
00:21:30,169 --> 00:21:27,840
I mean you know I talked to a bunch of

494
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:30,179
Christians just had a Christian fell on

495
00:21:35,030 --> 00:21:32,130
the last show guy I really enjoy talking

496
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,040
to who's tried to create a this dialogue

497
00:21:39,259 --> 00:21:37,200
lecture series between

498
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:39,269
Christians and scientists and has done a

499
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,799
good job he's over in there in the UK

500
00:21:45,049 --> 00:21:42,720
but I've talked to you know some of the

501
00:21:46,759 --> 00:21:45,059
world's leading consciousness

502
00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:46,769
researchers many of them who have a

503
00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:49,380
materialistic kind of view of things but

504
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:51,630
some of them who don't well if you'd

505
00:21:58,759 --> 00:21:56,010
speak to a Christian person who is a

506
00:22:02,029 --> 00:21:58,769
scientist and they are according to the

507
00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:02,039
to the National Institute of Sciences

508
00:22:07,879 --> 00:22:05,750
they are in the extreme minority their

509
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,889
approach to your conversation will

510
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:09,840
already be tainted by their belief in a

511
00:22:15,769 --> 00:22:14,250
deity you know they're not now they're

512
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:15,779
not speaking as much scientifically

513
00:22:21,259 --> 00:22:18,510
there speaking theologically and if you

514
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:21,269
speak to a scientist a secular scientist

515
00:22:26,930 --> 00:22:24,450
about consciousness you're probably

516
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:26,940
going to be getting less I'm wrong a

517
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:29,760
more of a nuts and bolts answer that has

518
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:31,440
to do with body chemistry and psychology

519
00:22:35,570 --> 00:22:34,080
and and all of these other things not

520
00:22:38,419 --> 00:22:35,580
necessarily so I'll give you an example

521
00:22:40,909 --> 00:22:38,429
and this is like one of the one of the

522
00:22:43,669 --> 00:22:40,919
pieces of evidence that I'd throw on the

523
00:22:46,399 --> 00:22:43,679
table and ask that we can bring it up

524
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:46,409
next time so you can dig into it find

525
00:22:50,419 --> 00:22:48,450
out what your position your what your

526
00:22:53,570 --> 00:22:50,429
take is on it but I'd point you to

527
00:22:54,190 --> 00:22:53,580
Jeffery Schwartz at UCLA School of

528
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:54,200
Medicine

529
00:23:00,580 --> 00:22:56,850
what Schwartz has done and gone even

530
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:00,590
further is said look I'm a psychiatrist

531
00:23:06,919 --> 00:23:04,740
what I've done is shown that a non

532
00:23:08,930 --> 00:23:06,929
physical thought an idea

533
00:23:11,419 --> 00:23:08,940
right which is non-physical it doesn't

534
00:23:13,370 --> 00:23:11,429
weigh anything we can't say it's over

535
00:23:14,509 --> 00:23:13,380
there in the corner I mean we could say

536
00:23:16,490 --> 00:23:14,519
all these little Thursday's little

537
00:23:19,669 --> 00:23:16,500
neurons in your brain that hold that

538
00:23:21,230 --> 00:23:19,679
idea but we understand that's not really

539
00:23:23,269 --> 00:23:21,240
that idea because I can write that I get

540
00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:23,279
down on a piece of paper and hand it to

541
00:23:27,430 --> 00:23:25,470
someone else and they can get that idea

542
00:23:30,529 --> 00:23:27,440
and at some point there's some

543
00:23:33,230 --> 00:23:30,539
immaterial non-physical transfer that

544
00:23:35,149 --> 00:23:33,240
goes on there so as a starting point we

545
00:23:37,879 --> 00:23:35,159
can say ideas are non-physical

546
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:37,889
but what Schwartz has shown is the

547
00:23:44,269 --> 00:23:41,130
thought or an idea can actually change

548
00:23:47,869 --> 00:23:44,279
the physical structure of your brain how

549
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:47,879
your brain works so this presents a real

550
00:23:53,530 --> 00:23:49,910
challenge for folks who

551
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:53,540
are sticking to this mind equals brain

552
00:23:59,020 --> 00:23:56,930
kind of formula do you understand where

553
00:24:02,140 --> 00:23:59,030
I'm going there I don't know that you

554
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:02,150
can say with as little I mean we know a

555
00:24:05,290 --> 00:24:03,890
lot about the brain but with so much we

556
00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:05,300
have to learn I don't think you can say

557
00:24:09,940 --> 00:24:07,790
that an idea is not physical I mean it

558
00:24:12,580 --> 00:24:09,950
is contained within the physical brain

559
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,590
and there are properties that will that

560
00:24:17,950 --> 00:24:14,000
are even if we don't know them yet our

561
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:17,960
our I believe anyway I think that and I

562
00:24:22,750 --> 00:24:19,690
think eventually science will prove that

563
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:22,760
that the neural activity has a physical

564
00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:25,930
explanation wildly wildly complicated

565
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:28,310
explanation but an explanation so the

566
00:24:33,490 --> 00:24:31,490
idea that that it because it is in our

567
00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:33,500
mind and abstract that's not a femur

568
00:24:38,050 --> 00:24:35,510
bone it's not a heart or a liver or

569
00:24:41,020 --> 00:24:38,060
spleen it's it's something else

570
00:24:43,930 --> 00:24:41,030
but it it is generated by the brain and

571
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:43,940
and how our brain functions does affect

572
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:46,880
it affects it affects all I mean people

573
00:24:51,820 --> 00:24:49,130
who you know it's just like people who

574
00:24:55,150 --> 00:24:51,830
hold a specific disposition tend to

575
00:24:56,740 --> 00:24:55,160
often get well from sickness faster than

576
00:24:58,390 --> 00:24:56,750
those who are more negative you know

577
00:25:00,850 --> 00:24:58,400
those who have more positive thoughts I

578
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:00,860
honestly do believe that the brain what

579
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:03,200
you think how you think how you see the

580
00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:06,320
world can affect you physically but I

581
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:08,030
don't necessarily hold to the fact that

582
00:25:14,770 --> 00:25:11,570
that an idea cannot be physically

583
00:25:16,930 --> 00:25:14,780
explained okay and again you're talking

584
00:25:19,030 --> 00:25:16,940
to a guy who's not a neuroscientist and

585
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:19,040
in my mind Alex just from listening and

586
00:25:22,510 --> 00:25:20,690
I know you know you probably deal with

587
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:22,520
this weekly so don't let me get into

588
00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:24,770
your wheelhouse but but you seem eager

589
00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:28,340
to ascribe an external explanation for I

590
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:31,820
mean you see does it do you believe that

591
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:36,650
there is the force is there is there an

592
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:40,970
entity of being you'll have power where

593
00:25:45,850 --> 00:25:43,730
are you going with the sort of the

594
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:45,860
inference is that there's an external

595
00:25:49,540 --> 00:25:47,930
force or an unexplainable force that

596
00:25:51,730 --> 00:25:49,550
guides consciousness and are those

597
00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:51,740
consciousness is connected are you

598
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:53,750
getting all Deepak Chopra on me here

599
00:25:56,860 --> 00:25:55,370
honking I'm just curious what your

600
00:25:58,990 --> 00:25:56,870
perspective is those did you know I

601
00:26:00,070 --> 00:25:59,000
think thing is I feel an agenda going on

602
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:00,080
and I just want to know are you trying

603
00:26:03,790 --> 00:26:01,610
to convince me

604
00:26:05,860 --> 00:26:03,800
well I think

605
00:26:07,540 --> 00:26:05,870
kind of lay it out what I'm trying to do

606
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:07,550
in terms of you know I want to lay out

607
00:26:11,890 --> 00:26:09,410
where I'm going to come at your from her

608
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:11,900
ominous challenge you on or ask you to

609
00:26:15,370 --> 00:26:13,370
go yeah I don't mind being challenged

610
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:15,380
that's cool but I mean are are you a

611
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:18,050
believer in like is it a divine

612
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:22,250
consciousness is it a spirit I mean

613
00:26:30,190 --> 00:26:26,090
that's the dialogue that I think we so

614
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:30,200
often get into in our culture or just on

615
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:32,450
the internet or wherever that really

616
00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:35,890
sidetracks us from trying to pin down

617
00:26:41,350 --> 00:26:39,110
the truth that all that stuff flows from

618
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:41,360
if the evidence suggests that

619
00:26:47,530 --> 00:26:43,850
consciousness is solely a product of the

620
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:47,540
brain then I would from that draw a

621
00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:49,760
whole bunch of conclusions but in

622
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:51,440
looking at the data I see the data is

623
00:26:55,630 --> 00:26:53,510
just the opposite I mean Jeffery

624
00:26:58,450 --> 00:26:55,640
Schwartz isn't the only one here out on

625
00:27:00,820 --> 00:26:58,460
a limb I mean the idea of materialism

626
00:27:03,730 --> 00:27:00,830
being dead is floating around there at

627
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:03,740
least with a dozen books from some very

628
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:06,890
prominent authors we'll leave that but

629
00:27:11,650 --> 00:27:08,510
I'll just point you to this whole topic

630
00:27:13,570 --> 00:27:11,660
of neuroplasticity and Jeffery Schwartz

631
00:27:14,860 --> 00:27:13,580
and a million other people who've kind

632
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:14,870
of looked at this thing so that the

633
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:17,090
second place I look is I don't know if

634
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:19,130
you're familiar with dr. Richard Wiseman

635
00:27:25,540 --> 00:27:21,650
from the UK but it's very popular on The

636
00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:25,550
Skeptical circuit on the Atheist circuit

637
00:27:30,330 --> 00:27:27,860
in terms of being a researcher in

638
00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:30,340
psychology very well-known in the UK and

639
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:33,440
so here's the quote from him that I

640
00:27:39,610 --> 00:27:36,170
think to me is really the deal breaker

641
00:27:42,690 --> 00:27:39,620
and this is it I agree that by the

642
00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:42,700
standards of any other area of science

643
00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:45,110
sigh that is esp

644
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:47,020
remote viewing all those things is

645
00:27:52,570 --> 00:27:50,480
proven but that begs the question do we

646
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:52,580
need higher standards of evidence when

647
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:56,450
we study the paranormal so what this

648
00:28:00,430 --> 00:27:58,850
quote to me and he said it more than

649
00:28:03,580 --> 00:28:00,440
once he actually said the first time and

650
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:03,590
then someone was so in disbelief that he

651
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:05,450
had said it the Daily Mail in the UK

652
00:28:09,340 --> 00:28:07,250
interviewed him again and they published

653
00:28:10,510 --> 00:28:09,350
his quote again and he broadened it and

654
00:28:13,570 --> 00:28:10,520
said yeah well I wasn't just talking

655
00:28:16,390 --> 00:28:13,580
about remote viewing this idea that we

656
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:16,400
can see things with our psychic mind at

657
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:16,880
a far

658
00:28:23,070 --> 00:28:18,770
but he said he was also talking about

659
00:28:25,330 --> 00:28:23,080
all the ESP and Siyar related research

660
00:28:28,450 --> 00:28:25,340
so you know here's the guy who's very

661
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:28,460
skeptical if you will coming out and

662
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:31,730
saying that this stuff is proven and of

663
00:28:37,690 --> 00:28:34,730
course the idea of ESP and remote

664
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:37,700
viewing completely violates the mind

665
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:40,490
equal brain formula so are you at all

666
00:28:45,730 --> 00:28:43,370
familiar with this kind of stuff I've

667
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:45,740
never heard of him but that's alright I

668
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:47,210
mean I hadn't heard of a great many

669
00:28:53,140 --> 00:28:50,000
people just a few years ago I'm

670
00:28:55,780 --> 00:28:53,150
certainly not familiar with anyone in

671
00:29:00,220 --> 00:28:55,790
the atheist or skeptical community who

672
00:29:03,540 --> 00:29:00,230
is in favor of promoting endorsing that

673
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:03,550
kind of speech it doesn't sound like

674
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:08,590
something that mainstream atheists

675
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:11,930
scientists or researchers are embracing

676
00:29:19,660 --> 00:29:18,080
it sounds like one guy I don't want you

677
00:29:22,990 --> 00:29:19,670
to go too far on that because he's you

678
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:23,000
know he's obviously I've got this little

679
00:29:30,190 --> 00:29:29,090
alarm you just go find all that out I

680
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:30,200
don't want you to commit to saying

681
00:29:35,650 --> 00:29:32,510
anything but he's at you sure he's at

682
00:29:37,570 --> 00:29:35,660
skeptic on he's at the JAF he's at all

683
00:29:39,850 --> 00:29:37,580
those very very prominent in the

684
00:29:42,550 --> 00:29:39,860
skeptical community you'll I think you

685
00:29:44,020 --> 00:29:42,560
will recognize him once you see his name

686
00:29:45,910 --> 00:29:44,030
down there and but it's kind of

687
00:29:48,430 --> 00:29:45,920
interesting also to hear somebody fresh

688
00:29:50,110 --> 00:29:48,440
their first take on that says gee what

689
00:29:51,850 --> 00:29:50,120
he's really saying is that this stuff is

690
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:51,860
proven and that is what he's saying and

691
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:53,570
then what he's saying further of course

692
00:29:57,460 --> 00:29:55,610
is the part that people like to jump on

693
00:29:59,860 --> 00:29:57,470
and say yeah but he's saying you know we

694
00:30:03,250 --> 00:29:59,870
got to be really really really sure

695
00:30:04,780 --> 00:30:03,260
before we change everything for that and

696
00:30:06,610 --> 00:30:04,790
that to me I guess that sounds like

697
00:30:09,310 --> 00:30:06,620
apologetics you know saying hey do we

698
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:09,320
need a higher standard of evidence than

699
00:30:13,390 --> 00:30:11,450
we normally use in science because this

700
00:30:15,790 --> 00:30:13,400
doesn't go against our belief systems so

701
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:15,800
that would be I guess apart to dialogue

702
00:30:19,450 --> 00:30:17,840
is isn't that really apologetics when

703
00:30:20,950 --> 00:30:19,460
you start saying hey we need a different

704
00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:20,960
standard of evidence cuz on this doesn't

705
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:22,940
quite go with the way that I want to see

706
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:25,010
things but you can pull that apart how

707
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:26,570
you want and then we'll see what you

708
00:30:30,850 --> 00:30:28,850
have to say well I don't you know I'm

709
00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:30,860
not again I'm not familiar with him

710
00:30:38,830 --> 00:30:35,030
if someone is saying aye you need a

711
00:30:40,690 --> 00:30:38,840
different measuring stick so that all of

712
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:40,700
these puzzle pieces will now fit

713
00:30:43,870 --> 00:30:42,530
together the way I want them to again

714
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:43,880
that's not science and I have a

715
00:30:48,550 --> 00:30:46,880
difficult time you know honestly

716
00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:48,560
thinking that somebody invited two

717
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:53,150
skeptic on or a tam or what-have-you

718
00:30:58,630 --> 00:30:55,970
would be someone who would it would

719
00:31:00,010 --> 00:30:58,640
subscribe to that kind of thinking so

720
00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:00,020
that'll be an interesting one to see

721
00:31:03,970 --> 00:31:02,480
where you wind up with that I'll send

722
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:03,980
you everything you need on that and

723
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:05,210
we'll see where you wind up there and

724
00:31:09,550 --> 00:31:07,490
then the third area that I think I'd

725
00:31:11,970 --> 00:31:09,560
like to talk about that I think provides

726
00:31:15,820 --> 00:31:11,980
the most direct kind of in-your-face

727
00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:15,830
evidence if you will that maybe mind is

728
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:18,590
more than brain is the whole near-death

729
00:31:23,230 --> 00:31:21,200
experience science we spent a lot of

730
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:23,240
time with it on this show of interviewed

731
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:25,610
some of the leading researchers in the

732
00:31:32,110 --> 00:31:28,930
field and as well have interviewed many

733
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:32,120
people who are more skeptical of some of

734
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:33,530
the science or the interpretation of the

735
00:31:37,630 --> 00:31:35,510
science now I don't know how familiar

736
00:31:40,030 --> 00:31:37,640
you are with the whole near-death

737
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:40,040
experience thing but what seems to be

738
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:41,930
pretty well-established is that number

739
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:45,650
one it happens people wind up in the

740
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:49,370
hospital they dive and then they come

741
00:31:55,540 --> 00:31:52,310
back are resuscitated and recall these

742
00:31:59,800 --> 00:31:55,550
amazing encounters that they had they

743
00:32:02,020 --> 00:31:59,810
are hyper conscious hyper lucid during a

744
00:32:04,990 --> 00:32:02,030
time that their brain is severely

745
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:05,000
compromised if not completely gone and

746
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:09,200
that's medically inexplicable are you at

747
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:11,450
all familiar with the whole near-death

748
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:15,440
experience thing I am and honestly you

749
00:32:21,460 --> 00:32:17,090
sound like you trying to convince me in

750
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:21,470
in good luck again we're talking about

751
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:24,320
perception and perception and reality do

752
00:32:29,140 --> 00:32:27,290
not necessarily intersect I mean I you

753
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:29,150
know I was doing a podcast last year and

754
00:32:34,810 --> 00:32:31,700
I had somebody who would say a nurse we

755
00:32:36,970 --> 00:32:34,820
talked about and they and this it was a

756
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,980
guy he had his own near-death experience

757
00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:38,480
he was actually dead on the table for I

758
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:39,740
don't know how long and he talked about

759
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:41,330
you know the white light and all of that

760
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:41,810
and

761
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:43,850
it's like it's hypoxia I mean you know

762
00:32:47,170 --> 00:32:46,010
you can see you can you can replicate it

763
00:32:49,570 --> 00:32:47,180
you and then when people come back and

764
00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:49,580
they say well I saw this I felt that I

765
00:32:56,170 --> 00:32:53,870
experienced whatever I you know I you

766
00:32:59,650 --> 00:32:56,180
can't tell me it didn't happen well yeah

767
00:33:04,690 --> 00:32:59,660
I can tell you that that you know that

768
00:33:07,090 --> 00:33:04,700
you saw angels and a dead relative or a

769
00:33:08,530 --> 00:33:07,100
friendly heard a friendly voice or

770
00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:08,540
floated above the room or whatnot

771
00:33:14,830 --> 00:33:12,350
yeah sure but what what you're bringing

772
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:14,840
to me now is a subjective first-person

773
00:33:22,330 --> 00:33:18,970
account that is unbearable highly highly

774
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:22,340
subjected to the chemical actions and

775
00:33:27,910 --> 00:33:25,360
reactions of a brain that is dying and

776
00:33:31,390 --> 00:33:27,920
you're passing it off as fact well

777
00:33:33,580 --> 00:33:31,400
that's not science and you know Stanley

778
00:33:35,530 --> 00:33:33,590
Coren and and Michael Persinger have

779
00:33:40,750 --> 00:33:35,540
replicated many of those God experiences

780
00:33:42,730 --> 00:33:40,760
using magnets in a lab so you know for

781
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:42,740
this entire conversation while I mean

782
00:33:47,020 --> 00:33:45,050
I've certainly enjoyed myself we're

783
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:47,030
we're starting in the abstract and then

784
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:48,650
I'm hearing all these assertions that

785
00:33:52,090 --> 00:33:50,510
and so many scientists have come and

786
00:33:53,530 --> 00:33:52,100
proven it and so many scientists agree

787
00:33:55,450 --> 00:33:53,540
and so many scientists have written

788
00:34:00,340 --> 00:33:55,460
books well look in my circle and I'm in

789
00:34:02,380 --> 00:34:00,350
a heavy a secular circle where where the

790
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:02,390
majority of scientists and neurologists

791
00:34:07,540 --> 00:34:05,690
and even you know people like Michael

792
00:34:09,250 --> 00:34:07,550
Shermer is a great example somebody who

793
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:09,260
has written books like the believing

794
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:10,610
brain in the talks about the subjective

795
00:34:14,260 --> 00:34:12,649
ways that people perceive and receive

796
00:34:16,750 --> 00:34:14,270
and why they believe these odd things

797
00:34:19,270 --> 00:34:16,760
their scientific explanations it it

798
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:19,280
doesn't mean that any of these I saw I

799
00:34:23,830 --> 00:34:21,770
felt I heard I experienced there was a

800
00:34:26,580 --> 00:34:23,840
tingling on the back of my neck stuff

801
00:34:28,780 --> 00:34:26,590
it's not science and it doesn't

802
00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:28,790
necessarily need to be taken incredible

803
00:34:34,119 --> 00:34:31,790
seriously on its face value we need to

804
00:34:36,129 --> 00:34:34,129
look and understand that you're looking

805
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:36,139
at somebody who is having a chemical

806
00:34:41,830 --> 00:34:38,510
reaction and and coming back and talking

807
00:34:43,570 --> 00:34:41,840
about perception and so I you know I I

808
00:34:45,310 --> 00:34:43,580
don't buy it I I think you're talking

809
00:34:47,619 --> 00:34:45,320
about something that's explainable that

810
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:47,629
has a physical explanation that is

811
00:34:52,690 --> 00:34:50,510
certainly not proof of I don't know if

812
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:52,700
you're going for God or just a spirit

813
00:34:55,690 --> 00:34:54,530
plane of some kind I mean are you a

814
00:34:58,930 --> 00:34:55,700
believer in the deity

815
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:58,940
do you have a God again you know I can

816
00:35:02,319 --> 00:35:00,079
go there and I'm happy to have that

817
00:35:05,470 --> 00:35:02,329
conversation with you I mean just just

818
00:35:07,539 --> 00:35:05,480
do you believe in a God well well let me

819
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:07,549
just answer the first part okay the way

820
00:35:12,549 --> 00:35:09,170
I want to answer it and then I'll answer

821
00:35:14,049 --> 00:35:12,559
your question directly okay well yeah

822
00:35:16,539 --> 00:35:14,059
I'm not really sure why someone would

823
00:35:19,089 --> 00:35:16,549
dodge that that particular quite an

824
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:19,099
accusation is more of a but here's my

825
00:35:23,140 --> 00:35:20,930
point because I think this is really the

826
00:35:25,780 --> 00:35:23,150
point of this dialogue is that this is

827
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:25,790
how things get sidetracked is we want to

828
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:27,890
jump to the end and we want to say oh

829
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:29,089
you know we want to start identifying

830
00:35:33,099 --> 00:35:31,730
you and saying oh you're a creationist

831
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:33,109
or anything I'm just saying I'm not

832
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:35,210
confusing you I'm not interested in any

833
00:35:40,780 --> 00:35:38,480
of that what I want to know is when I

834
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:40,790
hear such a targeted line of inquiry

835
00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:45,890
that is pushing me to to really step in

836
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:47,510
toward more of the spiritual right

837
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:49,010
you're you're saying look so many

838
00:35:53,620 --> 00:35:50,930
scientists um so much of the evidence

839
00:35:55,809 --> 00:35:53,630
which has not been my experience then

840
00:35:59,140 --> 00:35:55,819
obviously I as the interviewee want to

841
00:36:01,150 --> 00:35:59,150
know more about you know who dialed me

842
00:36:04,569 --> 00:36:01,160
up and who wants to know more about me

843
00:36:07,150 --> 00:36:04,579
Who am I speaking with what drives you

844
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:07,160
and so I'm not asking you to blow your

845
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:09,530
wad I'm asking you are do you come at me

846
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:11,690
from a deist ik or theistic

847
00:36:17,740 --> 00:36:14,510
point-of-view and are you trying to then

848
00:36:19,780 --> 00:36:17,750
convert me oh not at all and again I'm

849
00:36:21,910 --> 00:36:19,790
gonna go back to the beginning Seth

850
00:36:25,799 --> 00:36:21,920
because where I'm really coming at you

851
00:36:29,950 --> 00:36:25,809
from is exactly what I said which is

852
00:36:33,579 --> 00:36:29,960
this silly sideshow conversation that

853
00:36:36,789 --> 00:36:33,589
always dominates center stage is science

854
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:36,799
versus religion Christianity versus non

855
00:36:42,130 --> 00:36:39,710
Christianity and to me the questions are

856
00:36:47,020 --> 00:36:42,140
much deeper than that and really boil

857
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:47,030
down to one question is your mind purely

858
00:36:53,589 --> 00:36:49,970
a function of your brain because if it's

859
00:36:56,380 --> 00:36:53,599
not then we start having to introduce

860
00:36:58,359 --> 00:36:56,390
all these other topics that do kind of

861
00:37:01,240 --> 00:36:58,369
make us uneasy because they start

862
00:37:03,789 --> 00:37:01,250
sounding very spiritual and I think what

863
00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:03,799
we have to do is steal ourself against

864
00:37:07,780 --> 00:37:05,839
that and say wait a minute guys I want

865
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:07,790
to push everything else off the table

866
00:37:11,660 --> 00:37:08,970
and I really want

867
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:11,670
focus on this one question and I want to

868
00:37:16,220 --> 00:37:14,160
think deeply about it and I want to

869
00:37:18,260 --> 00:37:16,230
challenge everything I don't want to

870
00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:18,270
take anyone's word for it all these

871
00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:20,280
things right out of your PlayBook and I

872
00:37:26,270 --> 00:37:23,280
really want to be very skeptical about

873
00:37:28,490 --> 00:37:26,280
it so you know the third way that I come

874
00:37:30,109 --> 00:37:28,500
at this and yeah I mean I guess I'm

875
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:30,119
trying to convince you in as much as

876
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:32,640
whenever we dialogue like this we're

877
00:37:38,329 --> 00:37:35,730
trying to put our best foot forward and

878
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:38,339
our advance our best cause but you know

879
00:37:42,319 --> 00:37:39,390
Michael Shermer

880
00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:42,329
is a is a good nice enough guy he's been

881
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:45,540
on the show a long time ago but he's a

882
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:48,510
historian he's not a scientist he

883
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:50,490
certainly never studied near-death

884
00:37:54,620 --> 00:37:52,560
experience and as a matter of fact his

885
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:54,630
history on that in terms of writing is

886
00:38:01,190 --> 00:37:56,640
quite embarrassing and that he wrote for

887
00:38:03,770 --> 00:38:01,200
Scientific American a critique of some

888
00:38:07,099 --> 00:38:03,780
of the most important research in this

889
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:07,109
area published by a cardiologist named

890
00:38:13,579 --> 00:38:10,890
Penn van loml that did a 20-year very

891
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:13,589
respected study in the Netherlands

892
00:38:17,390 --> 00:38:15,839
published it in The Lancet one of the

893
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:17,400
most highly regarded journals and

894
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:19,530
Shermer comes out and writes this

895
00:38:25,550 --> 00:38:22,170
article and says hey look at this this

896
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:25,560
shows that these near-death experiences

897
00:38:29,540 --> 00:38:26,310
are nothing

898
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:29,550
well Shermer completely got it wrong so

899
00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:32,010
much to the point that pin van loml took

900
00:38:38,059 --> 00:38:34,440
it upon himself to write a response and

901
00:38:40,250 --> 00:38:38,069
say hey you not only you know didn't

902
00:38:43,099 --> 00:38:40,260
capture my research correctly in your

903
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:43,109
writing but you exactly got the wrong

904
00:38:48,829 --> 00:38:45,930
conclusion then we came to and then

905
00:38:51,859 --> 00:38:48,839
there's never any correction from short

906
00:38:54,530 --> 00:38:51,869
parts so I'll provide you it's not fair

907
00:38:56,660 --> 00:38:54,540
to say that Shermer is a historian they

908
00:39:00,500 --> 00:38:56,670
his degrees are in biology and

909
00:39:03,260 --> 00:39:00,510
psychology and and he is an expert in

910
00:39:05,870 --> 00:39:03,270
his field his PhD I thought was in

911
00:39:09,140 --> 00:39:05,880
history I'm willing to be wrong on that

912
00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:09,150
yeah he does have a PhD I want to say

913
00:39:15,740 --> 00:39:12,480
it's in I know he started in seminary he

914
00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:15,750
actually started as a believer but he he

915
00:39:21,770 --> 00:39:18,089
has a bachelor's in psychology and

916
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:26,720
is a skeptic and his career his job his

917
00:39:35,390 --> 00:39:30,810
life's work is exploring and often

918
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:35,400
exposing psychic phenomena and

919
00:39:39,350 --> 00:39:37,410
everything from homeopathy to you know

920
00:39:40,580 --> 00:39:39,360
to people who have these wild claims of

921
00:39:43,850 --> 00:39:40,590
miracles the bleeding

922
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:43,860
statue of the Virgin Mary I mean he to

923
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:45,930
to marginalize his work and I'm saying

924
00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:47,130
he's perfect but I'm saying to

925
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:49,110
marginalize his work I mean yeah he's a

926
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:51,050
historian of science that's what he is

927
00:39:55,990 --> 00:39:54,330
it is it's it's not necessarily a new

928
00:39:59,450 --> 00:39:56,000
thing for people to say you can't

929
00:40:01,430 --> 00:39:59,460
understand abstract consciousness that's

930
00:40:04,930 --> 00:40:01,440
not a new argument but to say that the

931
00:40:08,810 --> 00:40:04,940
reputable science community is

932
00:40:12,620 --> 00:40:08,820
advocating that there must be a conduit

933
00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:12,630
of spirit out there that is responsible

934
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:14,700
i I don't think that's accurate I don't

935
00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:15,930
think it's reflected by mainstream

936
00:40:20,090 --> 00:40:18,060
especially secular scientists who are

937
00:40:22,010 --> 00:40:20,100
the majority and I think if you spend

938
00:40:23,930 --> 00:40:22,020
that much time you playing what if

939
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:23,940
you'll drive yourself nuts I think you

940
00:40:27,770 --> 00:40:25,680
start the argument from elsewhere I

941
00:40:29,180 --> 00:40:27,780
think you know you start to look at

942
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:29,190
brain chemistry you start to look at

943
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:30,450
psychology you start to look at

944
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:31,770
intelligence you start to look at

945
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:33,210
culture and perception and all these

946
00:40:36,590 --> 00:40:35,130
other wildly complicated things and you

947
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:36,600
start there and see what you come up

948
00:40:43,070 --> 00:40:40,410
with well that is exactly why I wanted

949
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:43,080
to do this interview in two parts

950
00:40:48,290 --> 00:40:45,210
because I have to tell you in the

951
00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:48,300
dialogues I've had we always get to this

952
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:51,990
point which is you know we have to dig

953
00:40:58,430 --> 00:40:55,770
through all the opinions that we might

954
00:41:01,670 --> 00:40:58,440
have beliefs we might have and try and

955
00:41:03,650 --> 00:41:01,680
do as good a job as we can of getting

956
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:03,660
down to the science getting down to the

957
00:41:08,750 --> 00:41:06,090
scientific evidence and understanding it

958
00:41:10,580 --> 00:41:08,760
the best we can so you're talking to the

959
00:41:12,500 --> 00:41:10,590
wrong guy man I mean you you really do

960
00:41:13,970 --> 00:41:12,510
you need know you need psychologist you

961
00:41:15,740 --> 00:41:13,980
need neurologists you need people who

962
00:41:17,150 --> 00:41:15,750
are experts in the brain but at the end

963
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:17,160
of the day Seth I've talked to all those

964
00:41:21,290 --> 00:41:18,930
people at the end of the day I mean I'm

965
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:21,300
I'm an ex radio disc jockey and video

966
00:41:26,210 --> 00:41:23,640
producer and host of and I think I've

967
00:41:28,670 --> 00:41:26,220
done it a lot of digging a lot of a lot

968
00:41:30,260 --> 00:41:28,680
of digging right so on end of the day at

969
00:41:33,290 --> 00:41:30,270
the end of the day we got to bring all

970
00:41:35,540 --> 00:41:33,300
that stuff back up and see if it can

971
00:41:38,450 --> 00:41:35,550
answer these questions see

972
00:41:41,810 --> 00:41:38,460
if it can engage us in this dialogue in

973
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:41,820
a deeper way so that's that's my point

974
00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:44,160
so I talked about Richard Wiseman you're

975
00:41:47,420 --> 00:41:45,870
not familiar with Richard Wiseman great

976
00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:47,430
go get from new earth Richard Wiseman

977
00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:50,670
see what he has to say about ESP I'm

978
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:52,110
telling you about the near-death

979
00:41:56,030 --> 00:41:53,490
experience and I'm telling you that

980
00:41:58,250 --> 00:41:56,040
overwhelmingly hypocrisy has been

981
00:41:59,900 --> 00:41:58,260
dismissed as a possible explanation and

982
00:42:02,180 --> 00:41:59,910
that no one goes there and that I've

983
00:42:04,910 --> 00:42:02,190
interviewed sue Blackmore oh so you're a

984
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:04,920
believer then in extrasensory perception

985
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:07,410
you believe in ESP personally personally

986
00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:09,690
I'm not yes no question is so

987
00:42:15,380 --> 00:42:13,110
complicated for you personally is kind

988
00:42:18,610 --> 00:42:15,390
of I don't have any personal experience

989
00:42:21,110 --> 00:42:18,620
with ESP I think the over the once is

990
00:42:22,510 --> 00:42:21,120
overwhelmingly suggestive that that does

991
00:42:25,340 --> 00:42:22,520
happen that there is some form of

992
00:42:27,740 --> 00:42:25,350
extended human consciousness that does

993
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:27,750
occur in this way I mean it just that's

994
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:29,130
what the evidence shows I don't know

995
00:42:35,390 --> 00:42:32,250
what that means so I'm saying let's

996
00:42:37,610 --> 00:42:35,400
engage in a real dialogue a level-two

997
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:37,620
dialogue that gets past this well this

998
00:42:40,580 --> 00:42:38,730
is what I believe and I've already

999
00:42:41,540 --> 00:42:40,590
researched it and me saying well this is

1000
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:41,550
what I believe and I've already

1001
00:42:46,670 --> 00:42:44,130
researched it let's swap stories about

1002
00:42:49,310 --> 00:42:46,680
what we've researched and why we think

1003
00:42:52,030 --> 00:42:49,320
we know what we know and then let's get

1004
00:42:55,070 --> 00:42:52,040
back together and see to what extent

1005
00:43:01,340 --> 00:42:55,080
your worldview changes or my worldview

1006
00:43:05,330 --> 00:43:01,350
changes I'm still stuck on ESP great man

1007
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:05,340
go go check out stuck on it I honestly

1008
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:08,960
think if I mean I lump it ESPN with

1009
00:43:16,610 --> 00:43:12,000
astral projection with visions with

1010
00:43:18,860 --> 00:43:16,620
crystals with I myself think that this

1011
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:18,870
is a profound waste of time and energy

1012
00:43:23,380 --> 00:43:21,930
but to me you know superstition and

1013
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:23,390
religion they go hand in hand

1014
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:26,610
superstition and science do not and I

1015
00:43:30,410 --> 00:43:28,650
don't place them side by side they are

1016
00:43:32,090 --> 00:43:30,420
not dead fellows they are not partners

1017
00:43:36,170 --> 00:43:32,100
they are not friends religion is

1018
00:43:39,740 --> 00:43:36,180
incompatible with science and so I cast

1019
00:43:43,250 --> 00:43:39,750
my lot with science with science is a

1020
00:43:45,140 --> 00:43:43,260
method it is not a position as my friend

1021
00:43:47,630 --> 00:43:45,150
likes to say and no truer statement has

1022
00:43:49,130 --> 00:43:47,640
ever made so we can't really wrap

1023
00:43:52,190 --> 00:43:49,140
ourselves in the cloak

1024
00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:52,200
of science it's just a sign of tools and

1025
00:43:56,779 --> 00:43:54,660
it's exact because it's a city look I

1026
00:43:59,269 --> 00:43:56,789
want to live in the cause it's a set of

1027
00:44:01,940 --> 00:43:59,279
tools that it's a set of tools it

1028
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:01,950
doesn't mean anything it's just a way of

1029
00:44:07,849 --> 00:44:05,490
inquiry we can't say that it leads us to

1030
00:44:10,339 --> 00:44:07,859
some conclusion we can just say it's a

1031
00:44:12,650 --> 00:44:10,349
method of dissolutes science will lead

1032
00:44:14,750 --> 00:44:12,660
you to say I think you and I are simply

1033
00:44:15,890 --> 00:44:14,760
approaching the term science from

1034
00:44:17,269 --> 00:44:15,900
different perspectives and you'll need

1035
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:17,279
to forgive me I've only got a moment but

1036
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:19,200
I'd like to continue I informed you

1037
00:44:23,450 --> 00:44:20,400
before the interview I got a tennis

1038
00:44:24,829 --> 00:44:23,460
match so I'm not I'm not ducking the

1039
00:44:25,940 --> 00:44:24,839
conversation I want to make sure that

1040
00:44:29,269 --> 00:44:25,950
people don't think oh my God he's

1041
00:44:31,579 --> 00:44:29,279
leaving but I myself think that's

1042
00:44:32,690 --> 00:44:31,589
exactly the way you do it if I if I use

1043
00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:32,700
the cause and effect science

1044
00:44:36,259 --> 00:44:34,529
evidence-based method yeah that does

1045
00:44:38,509 --> 00:44:36,269
lead me to understanding that does help

1046
00:44:41,809 --> 00:44:38,519
me weed out the detritus and and embrace

1047
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:41,819
what is sound has a sound foundation and

1048
00:44:45,740 --> 00:44:43,680
I think it is a great way to live one's

1049
00:44:47,930 --> 00:44:45,750
life you know to live with an

1050
00:44:50,900 --> 00:44:47,940
evidence-based perspective I think I

1051
00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:50,910
think that I I do embrace that in in

1052
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:53,430
every area of my life that I can why

1053
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:55,650
don't we leave it there with the promise

1054
00:44:59,870 --> 00:44:57,359
that I am going to give you some

1055
00:45:02,690 --> 00:44:59,880
evidence and hopefully you'll give me

1056
00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:02,700
some evidence in response to that and I

1057
00:45:05,749 --> 00:45:04,529
really look forward to having you know

1058
00:45:07,789 --> 00:45:05,759
reconvening because that's when I think

1059
00:45:11,269 --> 00:45:07,799
the dialogue it's interesting gets

1060
00:45:14,569 --> 00:45:11,279
beyond what we believe right now and

1061
00:45:16,099 --> 00:45:14,579
gets to where our beliefs might move in

1062
00:45:21,380 --> 00:45:16,109
the future which is I think what the

1063
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:21,390
whole process is all about well yeah how

1064
00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:23,690
about what we know what we can prove

1065
00:45:28,940 --> 00:45:26,880
that's what I'm more interested in you

1066
00:45:30,740 --> 00:45:28,950
know and it that's saying that's

1067
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:30,750
semantics right I mean we're saying

1068
00:45:34,789 --> 00:45:32,970
follow the evidence and then you develop

1069
00:45:37,970 --> 00:45:34,799
beliefs from that evidence I mean the

1070
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:37,980
evidence is never going to be 100% I

1071
00:45:41,210 --> 00:45:40,079
better let you go because I'm a tennis

1072
00:45:43,130 --> 00:45:41,220
player too and you're gonna need some

1073
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:43,140
warm-ups but after that nap well I

1074
00:45:46,279 --> 00:45:44,730
appreciate the conversation the

1075
00:45:48,349 --> 00:45:46,289
opportunity to be involved you and I

1076
00:45:49,789 --> 00:45:48,359
stand probably on opposite sides of this

1077
00:45:51,529 --> 00:45:49,799
particular topic but it has been an

1078
00:45:53,950 --> 00:45:51,539
interesting discussion and I appreciate

1079
00:45:56,599 --> 00:45:53,960
the chance to be involved in it

1080
00:45:59,120 --> 00:45:56,609
thanks again to Seth Andrews for joining

1081
00:46:02,240 --> 00:45:59,130
me today on skeptic oh well as you might

1082
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:02,250
imagine I have quite a bit to say about

1083
00:46:07,700 --> 00:46:05,910
that first interview now I had initially

1084
00:46:09,170 --> 00:46:07,710
thought that I'd wait to get both

1085
00:46:12,770 --> 00:46:09,180
interviews and publish them both

1086
00:46:14,089 --> 00:46:12,780
together but after emailing Seth we

1087
00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:14,099
decided that I should go ahead and

1088
00:46:18,260 --> 00:46:15,569
publish this first one

1089
00:46:20,750 --> 00:46:18,270
get some listener response and then we

1090
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:20,760
can follow up with number two hopefully

1091
00:46:27,650 --> 00:46:24,240
I say hopefully because as you've seen

1092
00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:27,660
on skeptic Oh a lot of times hardcore

1093
00:46:32,660 --> 00:46:30,569
skeptics hardcore atheists usually run

1094
00:46:35,089 --> 00:46:32,670
like heck when they're really challenged

1095
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:35,099
in a debate but hopefully we'll get Seth

1096
00:46:39,890 --> 00:46:37,890
back on and have a good in-depth debate

1097
00:46:43,309 --> 00:46:39,900
on these points but I first want to go

1098
00:46:45,859 --> 00:46:43,319
over if I can and really tee up what my

1099
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:45,869
points are so that Seth has a real

1100
00:46:51,589 --> 00:46:48,290
chance to respond when he comes back on

1101
00:46:54,940 --> 00:46:51,599
so here are the four points that map out

1102
00:46:59,660 --> 00:46:54,950
my territory my position in this debate

1103
00:47:03,530 --> 00:46:59,670
0.1 the core scientific question behind

1104
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:03,540
a theum is does mind equal brain this is

1105
00:47:08,569 --> 00:47:06,000
a simple proposition but as you heard in

1106
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:08,579
this first discussion it's really hard

1107
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:10,800
for a theist and a lot of folks to wrap

1108
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:12,960
their head around this Seth wanted to

1109
00:47:16,940 --> 00:47:14,550
get sidetracked on whether I believe in

1110
00:47:18,559 --> 00:47:16,950
God or I'm hearing voices and he didn't

1111
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:18,569
say it I'm sure he would eventually have

1112
00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:19,920
gotten around to ask me whether I

1113
00:47:24,589 --> 00:47:22,260
believe in evolution or Noah's Ark or

1114
00:47:26,690 --> 00:47:24,599
some other stuff like that but all this

1115
00:47:28,819 --> 00:47:26,700
stuff is aside you it's a distraction

1116
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:28,829
what Seth doesn't realize is that

1117
00:47:34,099 --> 00:47:31,200
there's this implied assumption in the

1118
00:47:37,730 --> 00:47:34,109
Atheist position the implied assumption

1119
00:47:40,609 --> 00:47:37,740
is what we call materialism so I don't

1120
00:47:42,829 --> 00:47:40,619
usually go to Wikipedia for information

1121
00:47:46,099 --> 00:47:42,839
for various reasons but here is the

1122
00:47:48,349 --> 00:47:46,109
Wikipedia definition for materialism the

1123
00:47:52,190 --> 00:47:48,359
theory of materialism holds that only

1124
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:52,200
matter or energy exists that all things

1125
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,180
are composed of material and that all

1126
00:47:58,849 --> 00:47:56,640
phenomena including consciousness they

1127
00:48:01,910 --> 00:47:58,859
haven't parentheses are the result of

1128
00:48:04,370 --> 00:48:01,920
material actions now what I'm saying is

1129
00:48:07,460 --> 00:48:04,380
that everything that atheists care about

1130
00:48:09,980 --> 00:48:07,470
hinge on this assumption being true

1131
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:09,990
here's why consider this for a second

1132
00:48:15,319 --> 00:48:13,290
what if consciousness exists that is

1133
00:48:17,359 --> 00:48:15,329
what if that little voice inside your

1134
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:17,369
head is something more than just your

1135
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:19,650
brain now take that one small step

1136
00:48:25,010 --> 00:48:22,170
further and ask what if it survives

1137
00:48:26,540 --> 00:48:25,020
after you die now you can say that's a

1138
00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:26,550
huge leap and we don't need to go there

1139
00:48:32,569 --> 00:48:29,510
but we do need to ask that question if

1140
00:48:34,250 --> 00:48:32,579
it's more than just your brain but we

1141
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:34,260
don't have to ask it if that little

1142
00:48:39,020 --> 00:48:35,970
voice inside your head if consciousness

1143
00:48:40,970 --> 00:48:39,030
is all 100% your brain then we don't

1144
00:48:43,460 --> 00:48:40,980
because we know when you die your brain

1145
00:48:45,530 --> 00:48:43,470
dies and consciousness dies so that's a

1146
00:48:47,839 --> 00:48:45,540
real question and it's a question that

1147
00:48:50,780 --> 00:48:47,849
whether Seth realizes it or other

1148
00:48:53,780 --> 00:48:50,790
atheists realize it is really occupying

1149
00:48:55,460 --> 00:48:53,790
the mind of a lot of scientists so

1150
00:48:57,170 --> 00:48:55,470
during the interview I hammered Seth

1151
00:48:58,760 --> 00:48:57,180
pretty hard about mind equals brain my

1152
00:49:00,620 --> 00:48:58,770
nickles brain and he never seemed to

1153
00:49:02,660 --> 00:49:00,630
quite understand what was really at play

1154
00:49:04,460 --> 00:49:02,670
here but I think after he thinks about

1155
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:04,470
it for a while and hopefully after he

1156
00:49:10,550 --> 00:49:06,810
listens to this interview he'll see that

1157
00:49:14,089 --> 00:49:10,560
this is really the core scientific issue

1158
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:14,099
for atheists so let's move on to topic

1159
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:16,770
two and actually topic two three and

1160
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:19,440
four are all my supporting evidence for

1161
00:49:23,839 --> 00:49:21,839
the idea that mind equals brain really

1162
00:49:26,900 --> 00:49:23,849
doesn't hold up anymore and therefore

1163
00:49:29,930 --> 00:49:26,910
atheism needs to be reconsidered in

1164
00:49:32,329 --> 00:49:29,940
light of this new scientific evidence in

1165
00:49:35,559 --> 00:49:32,339
much the same way that Christianity

1166
00:49:37,819 --> 00:49:35,569
needs to be reconsidered in light of new

1167
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:37,829
biblical scholarship or archaeological

1168
00:49:43,569 --> 00:49:40,530
evidences really had quite a parallel

1169
00:49:47,210 --> 00:49:43,579
there but let me move on to topic two

1170
00:49:49,309 --> 00:49:47,220
neuroplasticity violates mind equals

1171
00:49:50,210 --> 00:49:49,319
brain now we spend a lot of time in the

1172
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:50,220
first-year interview talking about

1173
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:52,530
shorts from UCLA but I want to try and

1174
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:55,170
tackle it again in a way that Seth might

1175
00:50:00,680 --> 00:49:56,490
be able to understand

1176
00:50:03,220 --> 00:50:00,690
so what Schwartz did was he took a group

1177
00:50:05,359 --> 00:50:03,230
of patients that had

1178
00:50:06,890 --> 00:50:05,369
obsessive-compulsive disorder and he

1179
00:50:09,140 --> 00:50:06,900
sought to treat these patients by

1180
00:50:11,780 --> 00:50:09,150
teaching them how to meditate in a very

1181
00:50:13,819 --> 00:50:11,790
specific way and what he found was that

1182
00:50:16,460 --> 00:50:13,829
this not only relieved their obsessive

1183
00:50:18,740 --> 00:50:16,470
compulsive disorder their OCD but that

1184
00:50:21,390 --> 00:50:18,750
the physical structure of their brain

1185
00:50:22,830 --> 00:50:21,400
changed as a result of their

1186
00:50:24,930 --> 00:50:22,840
meditation and he did this by doing

1187
00:50:27,540 --> 00:50:24,940
brain imaging before and after and he's

1188
00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:27,550
a very careful scientist and physician

1189
00:50:32,310 --> 00:50:29,380
and he knows what he's doing

1190
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:32,320
moreover the relationship between

1191
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:34,480
meditation and changes in the physical

1192
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:36,130
brain is something that has been

1193
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:38,890
confirmed by other research other labs

1194
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:40,960
and you can search around for that and

1195
00:50:45,630 --> 00:50:43,690
pretty quickly find that so what does

1196
00:50:50,130 --> 00:50:45,640
all this mean what's the big deal well

1197
00:50:53,070 --> 00:50:50,140
here it is thought or abstract ideas are

1198
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:53,080
in material things they're non-physical

1199
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:56,050
things again Seth could never quite wrap

1200
00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:57,850
his head around this but if you think

1201
00:51:01,680 --> 00:50:59,680
about it for a while you'll see it's

1202
00:51:04,470 --> 00:51:01,690
really the only conclusion that you can

1203
00:51:07,650 --> 00:51:04,480
come to and let me try again with a

1204
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:07,660
simple thought experiment that I think

1205
00:51:13,380 --> 00:51:09,970
will drive this home let's say you have

1206
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:13,390
an idea a really good idea and it's

1207
00:51:18,930 --> 00:51:16,090
there in your head you might even think

1208
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:18,940
that it's physically there in your head

1209
00:51:22,830 --> 00:51:20,770
that is that it's thordan all those

1210
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:22,840
little neurons and synapses in your

1211
00:51:26,550 --> 00:51:24,850
brain okay so you have this really great

1212
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:26,560
idea and you don't want to lose it so

1213
00:51:31,770 --> 00:51:29,410
you write it down and then you die okay

1214
00:51:34,050 --> 00:51:31,780
where's the idea the neurons are gone

1215
00:51:36,750 --> 00:51:34,060
the synapses are gone where's the idea

1216
00:51:38,970 --> 00:51:36,760
how much does it weigh how big is it now

1217
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:38,980
you can't really say it's in the ink on

1218
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:42,570
the paper obviously it's not where is it

1219
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:45,370
now we know that the idea still exists

1220
00:51:48,420 --> 00:51:46,930
because you wrote it down and like so

1221
00:51:50,580 --> 00:51:48,430
many ideas from the past that have been

1222
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:50,590
written down someone else can pick it up

1223
00:51:55,170 --> 00:51:53,170
and get it inside their head and it's

1224
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:55,180
not gonna be quite the same inside their

1225
00:51:58,830 --> 00:51:56,650
head but you know we could line up a

1226
00:52:00,630 --> 00:51:58,840
thousand people and get it inside all

1227
00:52:02,460 --> 00:52:00,640
their heads and then we could ask them

1228
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:02,470
questions and we could statistically

1229
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:04,930
show that it's pretty much the same idea

1230
00:52:09,990 --> 00:52:07,690
we could do all that stuff that science

1231
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:10,000
and at the end of the day the only

1232
00:52:16,070 --> 00:52:12,610
conclusion we could come to is that

1233
00:52:18,930 --> 00:52:16,080
abstract ideas abstract thoughts are

1234
00:52:20,820 --> 00:52:18,940
non-physical so what what does all that

1235
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:20,830
mean let's get back to Schwartz's

1236
00:52:25,830 --> 00:52:22,690
experiment what does it mean if a

1237
00:52:28,890 --> 00:52:25,840
non-physical idea that he taught to a

1238
00:52:30,870 --> 00:52:28,900
group of patients can lead to physical

1239
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:30,880
changes in the structure of the brain

1240
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:33,520
well it means that this brain thing this

1241
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:34,690
thing that eighth

1242
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:37,810
assumed generates consciousness is being

1243
00:52:44,490 --> 00:52:40,930
affected by non-physical things called

1244
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:44,500
ideas it means that materialism remember

1245
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:47,770
materialism all phenomena including

1246
00:52:53,250 --> 00:52:50,530
consciousness are the result of material

1247
00:52:56,190 --> 00:52:53,260
interactions well it means that's been

1248
00:52:59,070 --> 00:52:56,200
violated it means that mine does not

1249
00:53:01,620 --> 00:52:59,080
equal brain or maybe in this case we

1250
00:53:05,460 --> 00:53:01,630
should say brain does not equal mind

1251
00:53:07,770 --> 00:53:05,470
because if non-physical ideas can shape

1252
00:53:11,780 --> 00:53:07,780
the structure of our brain then we have

1253
00:53:15,870 --> 00:53:11,790
a major chicken or the egg problem I

1254
00:53:19,230 --> 00:53:15,880
mean what came first the idea or the

1255
00:53:21,690 --> 00:53:19,240
brain so that's point two and sets

1256
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:21,700
shouldn't feel too bad about not getting

1257
00:53:25,620 --> 00:53:23,170
this point because as you remember

1258
00:53:29,010 --> 00:53:25,630
doctor Jerry Coyne didn't get it either

1259
00:53:31,530 --> 00:53:29,020
and he's a professor of biology at the

1260
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:31,540
University of Chicago but but as you've

1261
00:53:36,690 --> 00:53:34,330
seen if you have some very hard core

1262
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:36,700
cherished beliefs that you don't want to

1263
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:39,280
violate it's really hard to do any kind

1264
00:53:43,740 --> 00:53:41,710
of thinking on this topics and I think

1265
00:53:46,860 --> 00:53:43,750
that's the roadblock here because it's

1266
00:53:49,110 --> 00:53:46,870
not a hard concept so let's move on to

1267
00:53:52,170 --> 00:53:49,120
point three prominent skeptics have

1268
00:53:55,380 --> 00:53:52,180
already admitted that ESP sigh remote

1269
00:53:58,530 --> 00:53:55,390
viewing all of which by the way violate

1270
00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:58,540
mind equal brain well these guys have

1271
00:54:03,420 --> 00:54:00,640
already admitted that this stuff is

1272
00:54:06,660 --> 00:54:03,430
scientifically proven so look this one's

1273
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:06,670
easy Seth says he doesn't believe in ESP

1274
00:54:11,220 --> 00:54:09,130
at the same time he says he's never

1275
00:54:13,230 --> 00:54:11,230
heard of Richard Wiseman and I'm sure

1276
00:54:16,020 --> 00:54:13,240
he's never heard of Dean Radin well

1277
00:54:18,510 --> 00:54:16,030
therefore he's saying that he's formed

1278
00:54:21,210 --> 00:54:18,520
these beliefs without ever looking at

1279
00:54:23,610 --> 00:54:21,220
the data period end of story

1280
00:54:26,550 --> 00:54:23,620
because Dean Radin has done more

1281
00:54:28,470 --> 00:54:26,560
research into ESP than almost anyone and

1282
00:54:30,810 --> 00:54:28,480
he's certainly at this time the go-to

1283
00:54:33,180 --> 00:54:30,820
guy on this subject and even though I

1284
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:33,190
don't think much of Richard Wiseman he's

1285
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:35,650
more or less the go-to guy in terms of

1286
00:54:41,340 --> 00:54:37,810
being an ESP sigh whatever term you want

1287
00:54:43,020 --> 00:54:41,350
to use skeptic so Seth he's a smart guy

1288
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:43,030
you know he studied a lot of other stuff

1289
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:46,000
but when it comes to ESP we can say with

1290
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:46,690
confidence

1291
00:54:48,890 --> 00:54:47,280
the

1292
00:54:51,380 --> 00:54:48,900
doesn't know what he's talking about

1293
00:54:54,500 --> 00:54:51,390
that he's never looked at the data never

1294
00:54:56,330 --> 00:54:54,510
read any of the research but here's the

1295
00:54:59,240 --> 00:54:56,340
interesting part if you remember from

1296
00:55:01,310 --> 00:54:59,250
our interview Seth's major pushback was

1297
00:55:04,550 --> 00:55:01,320
that he can't believe that any real

1298
00:55:06,500 --> 00:55:04,560
scientist let alone a skeptic would say

1299
00:55:08,630 --> 00:55:06,510
that since this stuff has been proven

1300
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:08,640
that maybe we need a new standard of

1301
00:55:13,370 --> 00:55:11,970
proof Seth immediately recognized how

1302
00:55:17,780 --> 00:55:13,380
ridiculous this is

1303
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:17,790
at least initially because let's see

1304
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:20,370
what happens after he's infected with

1305
00:55:24,380 --> 00:55:23,130
the skeptical virus on this let's see

1306
00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:24,390
what happens after he talks to the

1307
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:26,880
Politburo and gets the official party

1308
00:55:32,930 --> 00:55:29,010
line on this that's gonna be really

1309
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:32,940
really interesting to see in here okay

1310
00:55:38,570 --> 00:55:35,370
point four here it is the evidence from

1311
00:55:41,630 --> 00:55:38,580
NDE research overwhelmingly suggests

1312
00:55:44,510 --> 00:55:41,640
that consciousness in some way we don't

1313
00:55:48,410 --> 00:55:44,520
fully understand survives bodily death

1314
00:55:51,410 --> 00:55:48,420
so this doesn't just violate mind equals

1315
00:55:53,780 --> 00:55:51,420
brain it shatters it it shatters it in a

1316
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:53,790
way that probably sends chills down the

1317
00:55:59,930 --> 00:55:57,090
spine of fundamentalist atheists like

1318
00:56:03,350 --> 00:55:59,940
Seth Andrews because now it's clear if

1319
00:56:06,140 --> 00:56:03,360
consciousness survives death then we

1320
00:56:08,060 --> 00:56:06,150
have to seriously consider all the other

1321
00:56:11,210 --> 00:56:08,070
stuff that generally falls into this

1322
00:56:13,610 --> 00:56:11,220
category called the spiritual because

1323
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:13,620
let's face it survival of consciousness

1324
00:56:19,670 --> 00:56:16,290
is one of the core beliefs of just about

1325
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:19,680
every religion in the world so if a

1326
00:56:25,220 --> 00:56:22,250
theists have to step back and say well

1327
00:56:28,460 --> 00:56:25,230
scientifically on that point it does

1328
00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:28,470
look like religion is right and we're

1329
00:56:31,940 --> 00:56:29,250
wrong

1330
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:31,950
well as you can imagine the whole thing

1331
00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:33,690
starts to unravel

1332
00:56:39,950 --> 00:56:37,200
now Seth's take on the NDE research is

1333
00:56:43,250 --> 00:56:39,960
that it's hypocrisy well maybe well no

1334
00:56:46,190 --> 00:56:43,260
not really maybe you see it's not epoxy

1335
00:56:48,890 --> 00:56:46,200
oh I know because pin Dan LOM all the

1336
00:56:51,170 --> 00:56:48,900
former guests ran experiments with real

1337
00:56:53,030 --> 00:56:51,180
near-death experiencers in a real

1338
00:56:55,940 --> 00:56:53,040
hospital for twenty years and he

1339
00:56:58,100 --> 00:56:55,950
concluded it's not epoxy

1340
00:56:59,839 --> 00:56:58,110
I know because Jan Holden former guest

1341
00:57:01,519 --> 00:56:59,849
and Bruce Grayson review

1342
00:57:03,469 --> 00:57:01,529
dozens of published peer-reviewed

1343
00:57:05,390 --> 00:57:03,479
studies many of which they did

1344
00:57:08,180 --> 00:57:05,400
themselves and they concluded it's not

1345
00:57:10,279 --> 00:57:08,190
epoxy I know because Jeff long former

1346
00:57:12,890 --> 00:57:10,289
guest who's a medical doctor working in

1347
00:57:14,569 --> 00:57:12,900
a hospital looked at thousands of cases

1348
00:57:18,620 --> 00:57:14,579
of near-death experience and he

1349
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:18,630
concluded it's not epoxy so please Seth

1350
00:57:23,660 --> 00:57:21,210
come back on skeptical and tell me why

1351
00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:23,670
you think indy either explainable by

1352
00:57:29,059 --> 00:57:26,880
hypoxia oh and please don't cite Michael

1353
00:57:31,279 --> 00:57:29,069
Shermer because he's never done any

1354
00:57:33,289 --> 00:57:31,289
near-death experience research and he's

1355
00:57:35,930 --> 00:57:33,299
just gonna cite people like Susan

1356
00:57:37,819 --> 00:57:35,940
Blackmore former guest who's already

1357
00:57:39,620 --> 00:57:37,829
admitted that she doesn't have a clue

1358
00:57:41,749 --> 00:57:39,630
what current research ended near death

1359
00:57:43,279 --> 00:57:41,759
experiences says and that she's not been

1360
00:57:46,069 --> 00:57:43,289
current in the field for the last twenty

1361
00:57:48,499 --> 00:57:46,079
years and don't cite paper's like mobs

1362
00:57:50,299 --> 00:57:48,509
and wat because we've talked to Carolyn

1363
00:57:53,089 --> 00:57:50,309
Watt and she can't even explain the

1364
00:57:55,579 --> 00:57:53,099
title of her paper let alone why it's

1365
00:57:58,969 --> 00:57:55,589
littered with citation errors and has

1366
00:58:01,190 --> 00:57:58,979
some very erroneous conclusions and if

1367
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:01,200
you really want a cite Michael Persinger

1368
00:58:05,269 --> 00:58:03,210
somebody who brought up in the interview

1369
00:58:07,670 --> 00:58:05,279
and another former guests of this show

1370
00:58:10,670 --> 00:58:07,680
and all the god helmet stuff that he's

1371
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:10,680
done be careful because while Persinger

1372
00:58:16,579 --> 00:58:13,650
might be somewhat of an NDE skeptic he

1373
00:58:18,349 --> 00:58:16,589
also maintains that he's proven ESP in

1374
00:58:21,319 --> 00:58:18,359
his lab so you're gonna have a hard time

1375
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:21,329
fitting him into your worldview so folks

1376
00:58:28,549 --> 00:58:24,210
those are my four points those are my

1377
00:58:30,559 --> 00:58:28,559
territory if you will and Seth really

1378
00:58:32,690 --> 00:58:30,569
hoping you come back on I'll give you

1379
00:58:35,709 --> 00:58:32,700
the straight answer that you wanted your

1380
00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:35,719
yes/no answer on do I believe in God

1381
00:58:39,709 --> 00:58:37,440
actually I'll give it to you right now

1382
00:58:42,529 --> 00:58:39,719
I'll borrow it from Raymond moody

1383
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:42,539
another former guest and say I don't

1384
00:58:48,859 --> 00:58:45,450
believe in God but I have a relationship

1385
00:58:51,410 --> 00:58:48,869
with God now finally I've said many

1386
00:58:54,019 --> 00:58:51,420
times that skeptics don't like to debate

1387
00:58:56,029 --> 00:58:54,029
as you've seen on this show over and

1388
00:58:58,370 --> 00:58:56,039
over and over again they run from these

1389
00:59:00,769 --> 00:58:58,380
debates and when they get halfway into

1390
00:59:02,569 --> 00:59:00,779
them they run even faster because the

1391
00:59:05,809 --> 00:59:02,579
skeptical positions we're talking about

1392
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:05,819
here are sheer nonsense and no one wants

1393
00:59:10,519 --> 00:59:08,400
to defend such silliness as for Seth

1394
00:59:12,980 --> 00:59:10,529
even though he agreed to a two-part

1395
00:59:14,930 --> 00:59:12,990
interview going into this my guess is

1396
00:59:17,290 --> 00:59:14,940
he'll back out around 2 with some

1397
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:17,300
high-minded statement about my agenda

1398
00:59:25,870 --> 00:59:21,050
yeah I got an agenda follow the data

1399
00:59:28,460 --> 00:59:25,880
wherever it leads ok I have an update

1400
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:28,470
seth has backed out of the second

1401
00:59:33,530 --> 00:59:31,290
interview now you know I shouldn't be

1402
00:59:35,150 --> 00:59:33,540
surprised I even said when I recorded my

1403
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:35,160
closing to the first interview that I

1404
00:59:38,660 --> 00:59:36,810
hey this guy's gonna back out and he's

1405
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:38,670
gonna say some high-minded stuff about

1406
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:41,490
my agenda but I didn't think he really

1407
00:59:46,460 --> 00:59:43,440
would I mean he's the thinking atheist

1408
00:59:48,740 --> 00:59:46,470
he's the only chance we have for someone

1409
00:59:51,170 --> 00:59:48,750
who says they're really going to dig in

1410
00:59:54,050 --> 00:59:51,180
and think about this stuff and yet he's

1411
00:59:57,710 --> 00:59:54,060
backed out I have to read you some of

1412
01:00:00,680 --> 00:59:57,720
these emails it is so much of what our

1413
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:00,690
dialogue on skeptic Oh is about so

1414
01:00:04,940 --> 01:00:02,130
here's how it transpired immediately

1415
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:04,950
after the interview I sent Seth an email

1416
01:00:11,270 --> 01:00:07,170
I laid out just like I did for you a

1417
01:00:14,359 --> 01:00:11,280
minute ago the 4-points links to Jeffery

1418
01:00:16,820 --> 01:00:14,369
Schwartz links to Dean Radin Richard

1419
01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:16,830
Wiseman all that stuff and at the end of

1420
01:00:20,060 --> 01:00:18,510
that email I give Seth two options I

1421
01:00:22,070 --> 01:00:20,070
said look we can schedule another

1422
01:00:24,290 --> 01:00:22,080
dialogue slash debate in a couple weeks

1423
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:24,300
or I can publish what we just did along

1424
01:00:28,430 --> 01:00:26,490
with my comments and see what listeners

1425
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:28,440
think before we try again

1426
01:00:32,570 --> 01:00:30,930
and I asked his opinion on that so in

1427
01:00:34,099 --> 01:00:32,580
this first email response to me he's

1428
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:34,109
already backpedaling a little bit but

1429
01:00:36,859 --> 01:00:34,890
he's still in the game

1430
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:36,869
he says whatever it's fine play the

1431
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:38,970
interview and let's see what happens he

1432
01:00:42,260 --> 01:00:40,770
says I think the Atheist community and

1433
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:42,270
religious community grow frustrated

1434
01:00:46,849 --> 01:00:44,850
because your assertions attempt to

1435
01:00:48,890 --> 01:00:46,859
create a hybrid I don't know where he's

1436
01:00:50,330 --> 01:00:48,900
going with that but he says go ahead and

1437
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:50,340
publish the first two interview and

1438
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:51,090
we'll go from there

1439
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:53,730
so then maybe an hour later I get the

1440
01:00:58,820 --> 01:00:56,010
next email from Seth it's not practical

1441
01:00:59,870 --> 01:00:58,830
to read the whole thing to you here but

1442
01:01:02,810 --> 01:00:59,880
I'll give you some of the highlights

1443
01:01:04,550 --> 01:01:02,820
he's as Alex my tennis match just got

1444
01:01:06,410 --> 01:01:04,560
canceled a few minutes ago due to rain

1445
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:06,420
go figure I do appreciate the

1446
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:07,710
opportunity to be a guest on your show

1447
01:01:13,130 --> 01:01:10,890
if I can be honest and that's been the

1448
01:01:15,260 --> 01:01:13,140
case all evening I guess I feel like

1449
01:01:17,420 --> 01:01:15,270
I've been participating in a religious

1450
01:01:19,550 --> 01:01:17,430
show he goes on to say personally I

1451
01:01:22,220 --> 01:01:19,560
can't participate on the same tier as

1452
01:01:25,340 --> 01:01:22,230
you because I see your measuring sticks

1453
01:01:26,690 --> 01:01:25,350
as suspect near death experiences

1454
01:01:29,420 --> 01:01:26,700
reports of es

1455
01:01:33,020 --> 01:01:29,430
peas and copious amounts of chatter on

1456
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:33,030
external consciousness I've come from a

1457
01:01:37,819 --> 01:01:35,730
belief in such things and rejected them

1458
01:01:39,050 --> 01:01:37,829
send me the name of the ESP scientist

1459
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:39,060
guy and I'm gonna have to think about

1460
01:01:44,660 --> 01:01:41,010
whether or not I'm up for another hour

1461
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:44,670
of this so now next hour emails are kind

1462
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:46,770
of crossing each other I'm sending him

1463
01:01:50,750 --> 01:01:48,570
and he's sending me at the same time and

1464
01:01:51,410 --> 01:01:50,760
in the process of me sending this next

1465
01:01:59,120 --> 01:01:51,420
email

1466
01:02:01,339 --> 01:01:59,130
just saw the part about part two that is

1467
01:02:02,930 --> 01:02:01,349
my email exchange with them initially

1468
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:02,940
that said we're gonna do this in two

1469
01:02:06,470 --> 01:02:04,530
parts we're never two part thing which I

1470
01:02:08,089 --> 01:02:06,480
explained the whole thing to him he says

1471
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:08,099
I just saw the part about talked to my

1472
01:02:16,069 --> 01:02:11,910
apologies I'll do the second interview

1473
01:02:17,510 --> 01:02:16,079
as I agreed remember that so in the

1474
01:02:20,859 --> 01:02:17,520
meantime while he was sending me that

1475
01:02:24,109 --> 01:02:20,869
short little email I sent him this email

1476
01:02:26,540 --> 01:02:24,119
Seth I think there's plenty of fire to

1477
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:26,550
make for a good follow-up debate smiley

1478
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:29,250
face I think many atheists despite a lot

1479
01:02:34,940 --> 01:02:32,730
of bluster are lazy thinkers if you want

1480
01:02:36,710 --> 01:02:34,950
to know about NDE research go to the

1481
01:02:39,170 --> 01:02:36,720
guys who publish in peer reviewed

1482
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:39,180
journals not popular professional

1483
01:02:42,950 --> 01:02:40,890
skeptics like Michael Shermer

1484
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:42,960
who get slapped around by researchers

1485
01:02:47,150 --> 01:02:44,970
like Penn van loml if you want to

1486
01:02:49,790 --> 01:02:47,160
understand ESP look at Dean Radin

1487
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:49,800
published more than anyone not jesters

1488
01:02:55,460 --> 01:02:52,530
like James Randi you think I'm driving

1489
01:02:57,589 --> 01:02:55,470
an agenda I think you are that makes for

1490
01:02:59,630 --> 01:02:57,599
a good debate smiley face but that's

1491
01:03:02,150 --> 01:02:59,640
also why we have to get beyond what you

1492
01:03:05,150 --> 01:03:02,160
think and what I think and hash out the

1493
01:03:07,010 --> 01:03:05,160
data so here's the next email I get from

1494
01:03:08,900 --> 01:03:07,020
Seth and here's where things really go

1495
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:08,910
off the rails you've heard this before

1496
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:11,280
if you listen to skeptic oh so here's

1497
01:03:16,069 --> 01:03:13,410
the email i received from Seth the

1498
01:03:19,220 --> 01:03:16,079
following morning well I did some

1499
01:03:21,950 --> 01:03:19,230
digging and I apparently confused you

1500
01:03:24,170 --> 01:03:21,960
with skeptic oh that's CEO and it would

1501
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:24,180
appear that I'm not the only one who got

1502
01:03:28,910 --> 01:03:26,970
caught in that oversight talk about

1503
01:03:31,550 --> 01:03:28,920
being infected with the Atheist

1504
01:03:33,890 --> 01:03:31,560
skeptical virus he's obviously read some

1505
01:03:35,569 --> 01:03:33,900
stuff on the internet now right I was

1506
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:35,579
also given the impression that we were

1507
01:03:39,740 --> 01:03:38,250
going to discuss my former faith and the

1508
01:03:41,870 --> 01:03:39,750
often soft approach

1509
01:03:44,180 --> 01:03:41,880
take towards believers among the

1510
01:03:47,230 --> 01:03:44,190
hardliners instead we spent an hour

1511
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:47,240
walking down a path of psychobabble

1512
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:49,650
interesting and seeing you lead me

1513
01:03:55,820 --> 01:03:52,410
towards validating your own agenda

1514
01:03:59,330 --> 01:03:55,830
it was disingenuous and poor form I'm

1515
01:04:01,370 --> 01:03:59,340
not interested in reappearing Seth okay

1516
01:04:03,290 --> 01:04:01,380
so we slept on things and he's read some

1517
01:04:07,220 --> 01:04:03,300
blog posts and he's read some comments

1518
01:04:09,590 --> 01:04:07,230
good deal my response Seth come on you

1519
01:04:12,860 --> 01:04:09,600
look silly here you confused me with

1520
01:04:14,780 --> 01:04:12,870
skeptic oh really how I sent you the

1521
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:14,790
link to my site I sent you a list of my

1522
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:17,370
former guests your statement is not

1523
01:04:23,540 --> 01:04:20,970
credible moreover my original email made

1524
01:04:25,460 --> 01:04:23,550
clear my intentions and then I quote him

1525
01:04:27,170 --> 01:04:25,470
the original email that I sent and I

1526
01:04:29,330 --> 01:04:27,180
highlighted the part we've hosted many

1527
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:29,340
debates with prominent atheist

1528
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:32,010
Christians and consciousness researchers

1529
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:34,290
what would have to add that this wasn't

1530
01:04:38,420 --> 01:04:36,810
just one email he sent me back and then

1531
01:04:40,010 --> 01:04:38,430
I send the part about the two-part

1532
01:04:41,810 --> 01:04:40,020
interview and he was in agreement of all

1533
01:04:44,660 --> 01:04:41,820
that so it is completely not credible

1534
01:04:47,330 --> 01:04:44,670
back to my email to him again your claim

1535
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:47,340
that I misled you is not credible look

1536
01:04:51,350 --> 01:04:49,170
Seth we don't have to be buddies to

1537
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:51,360
debate this stuff but running from an

1538
01:04:56,060 --> 01:04:53,490
honest debate gets us nowhere

1539
01:04:58,790 --> 01:04:56,070
you wind up looking exactly like the

1540
01:05:01,460 --> 01:04:58,800
dogmatic Christians you rail against for

1541
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:01,470
not being willing to think hope you'll

1542
01:05:05,930 --> 01:05:03,930
reconsider you twice agreed to come back

1543
01:05:08,030 --> 01:05:05,940
on both before and after the initial

1544
01:05:10,460 --> 01:05:08,040
interview you're gonna look pretty silly

1545
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:10,470
if you back down now - which Seth

1546
01:05:14,990 --> 01:05:13,050
responded rather tersely no it's my

1547
01:05:17,540 --> 01:05:15,000
fault for not doing due diligence I

1548
01:05:20,390 --> 01:05:17,550
think you've got plenty of material I'm

1549
01:05:22,580 --> 01:05:20,400
out to which I replied you're just

1550
01:05:24,500 --> 01:05:22,590
ducking a debate parenthetically because

1551
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:24,510
you're afraid to lose I've seen it over

1552
01:05:27,740 --> 01:05:25,290
and over again

1553
01:05:30,530 --> 01:05:27,750
atheism is as much about don't challenge

1554
01:05:33,050 --> 01:05:30,540
my cherished beliefs as Christianity

1555
01:05:36,410 --> 01:05:33,060
you're not gonna look good on this one

1556
01:05:39,380 --> 01:05:36,420
- which Seth replied I think this is the

1557
01:05:41,930 --> 01:05:39,390
tone that most alarms me the painting

1558
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:41,940
the insinuation of cowardice the

1559
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:44,400
schoolyard taunts an attempt to elicit

1560
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:47,370
the desired reaction this is not how

1561
01:05:52,820 --> 01:05:50,160
mature people conduct themselves it's

1562
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:52,830
certainly not a mindset or tactic I'm

1563
01:05:58,040 --> 01:05:53,730
public

1564
01:06:01,340 --> 01:05:58,050
to entertain that is all Seth my

1565
01:06:03,170 --> 01:06:01,350
response again not credible we talk for

1566
01:06:05,150 --> 01:06:03,180
an hour we found many points of

1567
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:05,160
agreement some points of disagreement it

1568
01:06:09,260 --> 01:06:07,650
was a civil pleasant conversation

1569
01:06:12,050 --> 01:06:09,270
the follow-up would be the same no

1570
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:12,060
shouting down of your ideas no cutting

1571
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:13,890
off of your opportunity to make your

1572
01:06:19,790 --> 01:06:17,010
case regarding insinuations of cowardice

1573
01:06:21,950 --> 01:06:19,800
well Seth you're ducking out of a debate

1574
01:06:24,650 --> 01:06:21,960
because you don't have a good response

1575
01:06:26,780 --> 01:06:24,660
to my points you can call that whatever

1576
01:06:29,630 --> 01:06:26,790
you will we don't agree on some stuff

1577
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:29,640
it's not always gonna be pretty but I

1578
01:06:34,849 --> 01:06:31,890
don't see how you can so blatantly

1579
01:06:37,849 --> 01:06:34,859
trample all over your stated mission

1580
01:06:40,820 --> 01:06:37,859
statement of challenge the opposition

1581
01:06:43,690 --> 01:06:40,830
and start thinking your excuses for not

1582
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:43,700
coming back on are going to look pretty

1583
01:06:48,290 --> 01:06:46,290
transparent you've already contradicted

1584
01:06:51,050 --> 01:06:48,300
yourself several times in this email

1585
01:06:53,570 --> 01:06:51,060
exchange I'm not trying to be nasty but

1586
01:06:55,970 --> 01:06:53,580
then again these are hard conversations

1587
01:07:00,320 --> 01:06:55,980
to have and a certain amount of brutal

1588
01:07:04,609 --> 01:07:00,330
honesty is necessary and that's the last

1589
01:07:08,510 --> 01:07:04,619
I heard from Seth Andrews so at this

1590
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:08,520
point I have to ask for some help if

1591
01:07:11,930 --> 01:07:10,170
you're an atheist or a skeptic

1592
01:07:14,450 --> 01:07:11,940
materialist reductionist whatever you

1593
01:07:16,310 --> 01:07:14,460
call yourself and you know someone who

1594
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:16,320
can pick up the gauntlet who can make

1595
01:07:21,859 --> 01:07:18,690
the case who can respond to the points

1596
01:07:23,750 --> 01:07:21,869
that I've made get him on sceptical or

1597
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:23,760
ask them to invite me on their show

1598
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:28,010
again anywhere anytime with anyone

1599
01:07:33,500 --> 01:07:30,450
anyone as long as they're a serious

1600
01:07:36,500 --> 01:07:33,510
public figure I mean Seth Andrews the

1601
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:36,510
thinking atheist has 96 thousand

1602
01:07:41,420 --> 01:07:39,450
followers on YouTube that makes him

1603
01:07:44,630 --> 01:07:41,430
someone worth talking to

1604
01:07:46,730 --> 01:07:44,640
so anyone like that I'm willing to talk

1605
01:07:48,890 --> 01:07:46,740
to why aren't they willing to debate me

1606
01:07:50,090 --> 01:07:48,900
what are they afraid of or if you don't

1607
01:07:53,599 --> 01:07:50,100
want to do that here's another

1608
01:07:56,030 --> 01:07:53,609
suggestion okay stop being a freaking

1609
01:07:57,800 --> 01:07:56,040
atheist for a minute and look at the

1610
01:08:00,590 --> 01:07:57,810
data look at the evidence

1611
01:08:03,170 --> 01:08:00,600
stop being led around by a group of

1612
01:08:06,380 --> 01:08:03,180
people who promise to cure you of your

1613
01:08:07,530 --> 01:08:06,390
Christian brainwashing only to infect

1614
01:08:10,650 --> 01:08:07,540
you with the

1615
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:10,660
he is enviros be a freethinker

1616
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:14,650
do SF Andrew says as opposed to what he

1617
01:08:21,660 --> 01:08:18,010
really does and think okay

1618
01:08:23,610 --> 01:08:21,670
enough of that hey thanks for joining me

1619
01:08:26,610 --> 01:08:23,620
it's been an interesting little ride

1620
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:26,620
here with the thinking atheist if you

1621
01:08:30,690 --> 01:08:28,690
would like to join in a dialogue on this

1622
01:08:33,090 --> 01:08:30,700
show and I really hope you will but what

1623
01:08:35,340 --> 01:08:33,100
your take is as long as you're civil and

1624
01:08:37,230 --> 01:08:35,350
want to have a real dialogue we'd love

1625
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:37,240
to have that dialogue with you the place

1626
01:08:44,490 --> 01:08:39,970
to do that is The Skeptical website it's

1627
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:44,500
at ske PTI k.o don't get confused like

1628
01:08:48,780 --> 01:08:46,930
Seth and put a C in there it's a K and

1629
01:08:50,700 --> 01:08:48,790
there you'll find our forum where you

1630
01:08:52,740 --> 01:08:50,710
can engage in this dialogue also have

1631
01:08:54,599 --> 01:08:52,750
the comment section of the website which

1632
01:08:57,930 --> 01:08:54,609
has this new format which I really think

1633
01:08:59,910 --> 01:08:57,940
is quite nice from discuss that well I

1634
01:09:02,039 --> 01:08:59,920
think engage people more and allow us to

1635
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:02,049
have more of a dialogue and then finally

1636
01:09:07,020 --> 01:09:04,930
you can email or Facebook me from the

1637
01:09:09,480 --> 01:09:07,030
website you'll also find their links to

1638
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:09,490
all our previous shows over 180 of them

1639
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:12,370
you can download them all for free many

1640
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:14,770
more shows coming up stay with me for